[JPN]

I was wearing an IWB holster with no retention features (other than the pressure provided by my belt), this morning. When I was unfastening my pants in the bathroom, I suddenly heard a loud thud, a fraction of a second after my belt got lighter. I didn't see how it hit, but my P11 landed on a layer of linoleum, over a layer of Sturdifloor plywood, over 2by lumber decking, over 4x12 beams (old barn construction, converted to a house). The floor is hard, and has no 'give' to it. The drop was from waist height (I'm 6 foot). The Golden Saber in the chamber had a very slight mark on the primer, when I inspected the P11 after the drop.

That's the last time I will use that holster. I'll put up with the additional bulk of my other holster, in exchange for the added retention.

I've been thinking about getting the Wolff recoil spring kit, and also doing the paperclip mod to the hammer spring. Would the Wolff extra power firing pin spring cause any problems with the lighter hammer spring tension?

 

[Guest]

Sounds like a question for Yzguy.....I am sure that he will be along shortly. I did drop mine on the carpeted floor the other day, but it hit sideways and everything seemed to be ok. I did however replace my firing pin spring with one from Wolff. And while I am thinking about it, YZ.....when I ordered the spring kit from Wolff it came with three FP springs. I am working on getting a P40 as we speak. My question is this; can I use one of the extra FP springs from my P11 rebuild kit to replace the spring that is in the P40 that I am trying to get?

 

[diamondmike]

BeltClip

JPN,

I use the BeltClip on my P-11 and P3AT both and they work great.

I have carried a gun for many years and unless it is a sholder holster you will have to remove the gun anytime you undo you pants or belt if it is in the waist band or on the outside of your pants, if it is on the outside of your pants no matter what kind of holster, the weight of the gun just pulls your belt right out and the gun will fall to the ground.

 

[Flyer]

There's no need to use a heavier firing pin spring unless you're going to a heavier recoil spring.
Only one actual "drop-fire" has been documented to my knowledge... and many, many guns leave a light primer indentation on the primer simply by chambering the round.
Given the lighter hammer strike if you use the paperclip mod, a heavier firing pin is liable to cause problems...
Flyer

 

[Midiman]

Hmm... one drop fire... reported many yers ago... my mind drifts back... to a restaurant... a crowded little Italian restaurant...

 

[Guest]

a bottle of red and a bottle of white!

 

[diamondmike]

Primer indentation

My WASR10 has no firing pin retaining spring in it and when a round chamers it leaves a good primer indentation on the Wolf ammo, it is almost borderline between firing and not firing!, but I have not had a round go off yet!.

I was told to stay away from winchester ammo or I will have problems with it slam firing.

 

[JPN]

Winchester primers are the softest available. Winchester ammo was part of the problem in a slam-fire incident I had. Two of my rifles have problems with indenting primers on chambering the round, and I have to use either surplus ammo in them, or load my own using a hard primer from CCI.

As I recall, the P11 beltclip is only available in a right handed version, so that won't work for me. I'm also a bit reluctant to use a carry method that doesn't have the trigger covered by a holster.

My biggest problem, this morning, was my holster. I've about decided to throw that one in the trash (after removing the clip, for possible future use). My other holster for the P11 grips it much better, has a retention strap that can be used or removed, and rides lower on my waistband (tends to tilt inward when I unfasten my pants, instead of outward to dump the gun on the floor).

The faint indentation in the primer was just something that lets me know I don't need to do *anything* to increase the chances of a drop fire. The paperclip mod to the hammer spring, by itself, would not increase the chances of a drop fire, but I thought there could be a chance of light strikes when used with the Wolff firing pin spring. I guess the biggest gap in my understanding is, why does the Wolff recoil spring need a heavier firing pin spring?

 

[Flyer]

Well, the theory is that with the heavier recoil spring the faster the slide moves returning to battery, increasing the inertia on the firing pin, possibly causing it to strike the primer and detonate it.
The thing is... the P-11 pin is so LIGHT it's almost unaffected by that extra slide speed... so I wouldn't even worry about it.
Flyer

 

[JPN]

And the reduced hammer spring tension might be enough to make up for the difference in the speed of the slide.

I guess it's time to order the Wolff springs and try it out.

 

[yzguy]

ok, here are my thoughts...

I don't think the recoil spring plays a part in the need for the extra power FP spring. As flyer stated, I don't think slam fires are a problem with the P-11 (hey Flyer, didn't you try your P-11 without a FP spring to see if it would slam fire?)

I have the Wolf extra power FP spring in to reduce the tendency to drop fire.

I also found that the drop fire distance was slightly increased by doing the paper clip mod to the trigger. This is because the hammer spring pre loads the fp spring, and the hammer helps push it home if it is dropped muzzle first. The spring is helping the hammer push the fp when dropped. So lightening the main spring reduces the tendency to drop fire.

Making the fp spring stronger, and lightening the hammer spring is all well and good for drop fires, and trigger pull, but if you get light strikes, it is about useless... so you also want to smooth the FP, and FP set screw as well as keep the area clean and lightly lubed. I clean out my FP ever 1,000 rounds or ever year. I also throw in S&B to practice with some times to check for light strikes, if I don't get one with S&B I won't get one with my carry ammo, and it is likely that even if I start to get them with S&B that my carry ammo would still work fine, but it is cleaning time....

http://www.goldenloki.com/guns/keltec/prep2.htm

I have also shortened and lightened my pull as well as installed the wolf extra power FP spring.

and for those that don't already know:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptestresults.htm

edit to add:
yeah, my SAR-1 (AK clone) does not have a FP spring either (it is free floating) but it also does not have the mass of a hammer resting on it to help the FP as the P-11 does. It is also less likely to be dropped muzzle first from 3-4 feet (distance from the muzzle). I would bet that if dropped from high enough on it's muzzle it would drop fire, but due to not having the hammers help, this distance would be high (4-5 + feet maybe higher??). Just not likely to be holding it by the muzzle over my head when it it dropped.

On the other hand a P-11 being dropped muzzle first from waist high, is not all that unlikely....

 

[JPN]

I ordered the Wolff springs, last night. I thought I would install just the recoil springs, then load two rounds of Winchester 9mm and do something similar to checking for smilies on a P3AT. Instead of checking the nose of the second bullet for marks, I'll be checking the soft Winchester primer for any marks made as it was chambered. If there are no marks, I will probably continue to use the stock firing pin spring, and repeat the test after doing the hammer spring mod and smoothing the firing pin.

I'll post the results.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[JPN]

I swapped the 18lb Wolff springs for the stock recoil springs, left the stock firing pin spring in, loaded two rounds of Winchester 115gr JHP, fired one round, then checked the chambered round for any signs of a firing pin strike (Dimplies?). After repeating the test five times, I still have no indication of a firing pin strike, so it doesn't look like there's a danger of a slam fire with the 18lb springs. I'll repeat the test after doing the hammer spring mod and smoothing the firing pin.

The attached picture is of the Golden Saber that was in the chamber during the unintentional drop test. The recovered bullet, next to it, is something I acquired while doing the dimply test. I was using the box Midway shipped my brass tumbler in, as a target stand. One particularly bad shot hit the dirt a foot or two in front of the box. I saw the dirt and grass fly, and the bullet apparently bounced up, keyholed the box about 8 inches above the ground (kinda high for hitting the ground that close to the box), tore the rear of the box, but didn't go through. I found the bullet inside the box.

Either Tennessee clay is a much better bullet trap than I thought it was, or Midway is using ballistic cardboard to ship orders. :shock: