[maddog]

Hi all,

Took my SU 16 to the range for the second time yesterday. Last week was my first experience with the rifle and Wolf ammo and had no problems with the first 100 rounds. Was dead-on at 100 yards and 'walking' to my targets at 200 yards being able to hit stuff after two-three rounds. Yesteday was different. Same lot of ammo but multiple jam problems with stuck casings after firing. At least 10 times with the 100 rounds I brought. :rant: Accuracy was good but at least on one occasion the extractor jammed. With gentle prodding with my cleaning rod and tapping the rifle on its butt pad was able to extract the case. :jester:
Question-better ammo resolve the problem? I am a plinker so not readily informed on the advantages of the many types of ammo available. But . . . Can live without the jamming and consequential mis-feeds! :afire:

Thank you all in advance for your expertise! :dunce:

maddog

 

[Midiman]

Use Russian ammo in Russian guns.

 

[Flyer]

Yep, it's almost certainly the Wolf ammo. Frankly I'm surprised you haven't had more problems than this.
Just about any kind of inexpensive brass-cased ammo from a good manufacturer should stop your problems. I particularly like Winchester's White Box load. It's actually made in Israel by IMI, and is commonly referred to as the "Q3131A" round.
It's loaded to full mil-specs, and in fact the box calls it 5.56 mm ammo. Great stuff.
Flyer

 

[pktrkt]

Was it the new polymer coated or the laquer coated stuff that gave you the problems. I've thought about purchasing some of the polymer stuff as its sooo cheeeep.! Any suggestions???

pktrkt

 

[Ghost1]

Wolf ammo

Maddog,
wolf steel case ammo is coated with lacquer. as the chamber of your rifle heats up from firing the lacquer from each new chambered round begins to melt and leaves residue in the chamber, this atracts and holds spent powder residue. After a few rounds of this, the built up of debris will cause malfunctions. The Su-16 uses the same bolt system as an AR-15 and has tight tolerances. You should definitely only use good quality brass cased cartridges in your rifle. Flyer is right Winchester white box stuff is in-expensive and good quality. You can pick up 40 round boxes of Winchester at walmart for around 10 bucks!! Wolf ammo is okay in guns with looser tolerances, like AK-47's SKS, and the like. They are made to digest this ammo. I use Wolf exclusively in my Romanian AK-47 and get good groups with it and no malfunctions. Again it is the looser tolerances built in to this rifle that allows for the lacquer coated cases not to cause problems as quickly as they will in rifles like your SU-16 or an AR-15. Before you take your SU-16 out to shoot again, give it a thorough cleaning. Especially the chamber and bolt face. This is where the lacquer build up is causing your problems. Hoppes No. 9 solvent will help get rid of this, but you will need a good AR-15 chamber brush to properly clean the chamber and remove the residue. Hope this is helpful!! :ak2:

 

[Bulbman]

the new wolf polymer stuff doesn't gum up the chamber like the old lacquer stuff did, shoot it exclusively in my vepr (still smells horrible though and leaves a huge smoke cloud)
Still, if I had an su-16 or a AR, there would be no way in hell I would let steel cased ammo touch my chamber, coated or not.

like midiman said

Use Russian ammo in Russian guns.

 

[maddog]

New ammo-same problem

Hi all.

Taking the good advice I was given I did the following. Bought some good quality brass ammo and completely cleaned my rifle with a good solvent. Went to the range today. Same problem only now it is worse. About every third or fourth round would not eject after firing causing the next live round to jam into it. I would have to drop the mag, manually remove the live round and then remove the spent round with a cleaning rod. Very frustrating. The rifle is clean. Even bought a M16 breech brush and scrubbed any trace of the Wolf ammo out.
The only option I can see at this point is returning the rifle to Kel-Tec for a look over. Any other advise? Anyone else have this much hassle? It seems to be a well made rife but the jamming is really putting a damper on my enthusiasm.


maddog

 

[Flyer]

Actually, you've brought up something interesting.
What magazines are you using? The 10 rounders that come with it, or 30 round GI mags?
SOME folks have reported problems with the factory mags, and a bad mag can cause almost all the problems you describe.
If you can, try a different mag, and see if that cures things.
Flyer

 

[maddog]

Hi Flyer

Was using the factory 10 round mags. Have had the problem fairly consistently with both my 30's and factory 10's.
maddog

 

[Midiman]

The factory 10's usually only lead to feeding problems and not extraction problems. Have you checked the lip of the extractor on the bolt face?

 

[maddog]

Hi Midiman

Have the rifle in front of me completely disassembled. I honestly can't see any obvious dings, dents, scratches, pings, cracks, ect. Do you think that it could be a defect from the factory? I honestly believe that every trace of the wolf ammo residue is gone so that can't be an issue. Cause it does happen with my factory 10's and GI 30's it shouldn't be a mag issue. But then what do I know! It was a balmy 100 degrees at the range so maybe I overheated!

maddog

 

[Flyer]

Try this trick to check extractor function:
Holding only the bolt assembly, slide a case into place under the extractor, and push it down completely until the ejector is compressed.
You should be able to "lever" the round at a range from straight up and down to a considerable angle before the extractor lets go. In fact, this is a good way to lube the ejector; a drop of lube and a dozen or so plungings.
Flyer

 

[Bulbman]

I have heard of the wolf stuff bending extractors, is the SU-16 extractor a big burly thing like on an AK or is it small and thin?

 

[Flyer]

An SU extractor is very similar to an AR-15s.
In other words, it's tough.
Flyer

 

[Ghost1]

failure to extract cartridge cases

Hi maddog,

Question; when you had to remove stuck cartridge cases using a cleaning rod, did the cartridges come out to the chamber easily, or did you have to use some force to remove them? If they came out easily, the problem is definately with the extractor on the bolt assembly. Most common is dirt (residue) getting into the extractor. usually on the inside of the extractor hook, causing it not to engage case rims fully. Make sure that you pay particular attention to cleaning this. A good idea is to soak the bolt in a good solvent, or using a good spray gun cleaner. I like pwder blast from break free. it does a prety good job. using a dental pick in the small crevices also is good. There is a good possibility that you still have residue from the wolf ammo in the bolt and extractor area. If the cartridge cases required force to remove from the chamber, then you quite probably have residue still in the chamber.
If you did not have problems with the rifle prior to using the lacquer coated ammo, I don't think you did any damage to the extractor. What kind or brand of brass cased ammo did you experience the problem with? :?:

 

[maddog]

Hi Ghost 1. This is the story. Took the SU out a few weeks ago and burned 100 rounds of Wolf ammo through it with no problems. This is not the lacquer coated stuff but rather the newer polymer coated stuff. Brought the gun home and completely cleaned it using Hoppes and a M16 breech brush. Went to the range last week and burned 100 more rounds of the Wolf. Had a couple of jams that required a cleaning rod to remove. The empty cases were really jammed tight. Came home and COMPLETELY stripped the SU and scoured and scrubbed it COMPLETLEY. This is per what you experts told me. Good advice! I put the remaining wolf ammo away and bought 100 rounds of Denel PMP .223 Remington FJBT 55gr ammo. Nice clean brass cases. This ammo was recommended by my local gun shop. Went to the range. Started having jamming problems after the gun heated up. Lets say after 20-30 rounds. You need to know I was sighting in a new site so my fire was fairly slow. Ten rounds, target check, etc. Then it started again at least after every 3-4 rounds the spent round would stay stuck in the breech and new round end up jammed behind it and the charging mechanism. Bad stuff. Had to drop the mag, finger out the live round, then maually extract the spent round by pulling the charging handle back multiple times. This time I did not need to run a ram rod down the barrel to release them as I did previously. The range master came over and offered me a cleaning rod at one point! Guess he could tell I was getting a bit steamed. :rant:
Anyhow, talked to Kel-Tec this am and they suggested I return the rifle for repairs. I don't know what else to do but return the gun. Could it have been the Wolf ammo after 200 rounds? I can assure all that this rifle is clean! It takes down fairly easily and to my untrained eye I honestly cannot see any obvious defects in any of the mechanisms. It does handle dummy rounds just fine!
GO FIGURE!!!!!
Hey, I sincerely appreciate all of you who have written to discuss this with me. Will advise if Kel-Tec lets me know what is going on.

Happy Plinking!

maddog

 

[Midiman]

This is your American gun....
This is your American gun on Wolf...
Any questions?

Laquer isn't the only issue here. STEEL CASES, poly coated or not, is another issue. I'd return the rifle to KT and let them look into it... then I'd stick with brass cased ammo... DEMEL, I've never even heard of.

 

[maddog]

Hi Midiman

Spelled it wrong. It is DENEL/PMP. Did a google search and found their website.

maddog

 

[Midiman]

Still never heard of them... any idiot can have a website... ask me!

 

[Flyer]

midi,
Sure you've heard of Pretoria Metal Pressing! They're in Africa.
How right you are about websites!
ANY moron can have one! For instance, if you go to www.flyer -
Um, er, nevermind.
Flyer