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Smiley theory

My mag can move fore and aft about 1/32 and it will travel that way under recoil. If you depress a RN round in the mag to the depth the rib in the slide holds it at, the bullet is half above the mag lip. Pushing the barrel rearward and the mag forward, the RN bullet is just about touching the barrel.
Conical bullets can crawl up the space between slide rib (under recoil) and mag top and get socked by the recoilling feed ramp. At the most, I'd just round the sharp edge on the bottom of the feed ramp.
SP bullets in magazines of HP rifles get flattened and heavy bullets in strong recoilling revolvers jump their crimps. Inertia bullet pullers also work well. I doubt frictional forces between slide rib and cartridge case amount to any significant restraining force.
If some kind of buffer could be fitted into the design I believe it might help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #82 ·
do the fix and no worries

Hi, flybob,
Those of us who have done the ramp fix, etc. don't even worry about the technical factors involved anymore. However, if you want to explore, study this entire thread, do the tests with the recoil spring removed, try the hand chamber a round remove magazine and look tests, etc. Then run similar test at the range and see what happens as the pistol gets fouled and sooty. Most of us have researched the heck out of this problem, and yes we're convinced it is a combination of inertia, recoil, mechanical design, etc., etc., whatever.
Therefore, thanks for your thoughts, but just can't get excited about this anymore.
FWIW,
og :roll:
 

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Before I did the mod I would get a smiley on the first round chambered after firing the first hand cycled one. Now I don't get any. :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #84 ·
Right!! Good Show!!

marlin,

Aha!! By Jove!! You have discovered the secret to how to get a good nights sleep without worry about smileys anymore.
Congrats!
Thanks for the post.
og.......

p.s. to all.....what about all those P3AT owners out there who've never heard about smileys? Is ignorance bliss?? :roll:
Note, I said ignorance! :lol:
If they weren't, they'd be on this site. And the only way you can learn about smileys and the Flyer Fix is to be a member. 8)
 

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Updates?

No posts since 03-10-04 on this subject, has anybody found new information or a better fix?
 

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I have done a rampotomy by doing a flat grind similar to oldgrampa. My P3AT is only reliable with FMJ Winchester blunt Semi-wadcutters and only when clean and well oiled.

In my particular case I believe that upon firing the round next in line to be chambered is moving forward and is striking the aluminum frame edge in front of the magazine. In the case of a round nose round, the round will pivot upward towards the feed ramp and the ejecting spent case that is at the same time coming back. The round that is moving forward from the magazine will then wedge itself into the bottom of the ejecting case while it is still in the chamber. The extractor lets go of the spent case.

The end result is a severe jam with the spent case still in the chamber and a bent unfired round jammed in the action as well.

In my particular case the cure is to use the blunt FMJ semi-wadcutter round by Winchester. The blunt nose will catch on the aluminum frame edge. Round nose bullets jam in the way I have described above.

The magazine has too deep of a front cutout. The cutout should be high enough to prevent the forward movement of the next in line round while it is still being held down by the closed slide.
 
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Volt I read your post twice, it sounds like you have an unreliable weapon now. If this is the case was it attributed to your ramp mop?
 

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The original pistol had poor reliability and I sent it back because the barrel pin worked itself half out while I was firing it and the barrel lug became distorted and the frame pin holes ovaled out. It came back from the factory as a new restamped pistol. It had from the factory a mild rounded bottom style rampotomy that made things much worse. The mild rampotomy had a sharp edge that cut into the bullets like a blade.

I then did a flat file style rampotomy. I coated the feed ramp with candle soot and cycled the slide to determine where the bullet hits the ramp. I then filed till the ramp no longer protruded into the magazine well.

This rendered the pistol to be completely reliable.

Then the trigger mechanism broke while firing Santa Barbara ammo. I sent back the pistol minus the barrel and slide.

They sent the frame back with the trigger mechanism fixed. It is the same frame because the wear marks are all as I had left it.

Now the pistol only works well with Winchester semi-wadcutter FMJ. You can see marks on roundnose bullets where they are contacting and ridding up over the frame edge. The frame edge shows copper marks and wear from the bullets striking it.

I suspect that the factory removed the aluminum part of the frame to fix the trigger and that it has now been placed into the plastic just a little bit lower than before. Or the frame edge has worn to where round nose bullets can now over ride it.

It is safe to say I have over a thousand rounds through it.
 

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The frame is still in the same place, no way it went in lower or the frame pin holes wouldnt line up.

Field strip your pistol and install an empty mag. You will see that the mag contacts the frame, not the bullet nose. The bullet nose contacts the feed ramp as the round above is fired. I am researching right now, as first rampectomy it about to begin. I think I know what I am doing, just making sure all my ducks are in a row. RCmodel pointed out to me the frame should not be ground, as it limits forward magazine travel.
 

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I am at work right now and will be leaving town but I will try to get some photos posted soon as to how the next in line to be fired round while under recoil is contacting and overriding the frame edge.

The magazine has a front cutout that is too deap and the top round is flung into the frame edge while the round is still pressed down by the yet to be fully opened slide.

Check your frame edge in front of the magazine for copper marks from the bullets.

This might be primarly a post rampotomy problem.
 

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Below is a photo of how a round nose bullet is able to ride up over the frame edge and enter the area of the feed ramp even though the slide is over and still compressing the round.

I am convinced that this "frame overide" is happening during recoil. I think this is the cause of smilies on post-rampotomy pistols that have ramps that do not enter the magazine area.

The interesting thing is it seems to happen worse as the pistol becomes dirty. Is the bottom of the slide that rubs the top round in the magazine getting sooty and thus slicker? Or is the frame edge getting slicker. Sort of like being coated in graphite? I do not know.

A lot of things are moving very fast and many things are happening in micro-seconds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
try this

Volt,
good looking ramp job, about like mine on my 1st gen P3AT.

To better see what's going on, try this....

remove the spring from the slide/barrel and then reassemble the pistol.
Now you can slowly cycle the slide by hand and watch the effect on rounds in the magazine.

og
 
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