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Okay, pic taken. I don't have a Macro mode, so this'll have to do:



I'd have to say that the new barrels are DEFINITELY different! Wonders never cease...
Flyer
 
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Flyer, what is your S/N and someone educate me.....I've looked at the pics and how can you tell that the barrels are different?
 

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norfdet893,
That barrel is under #150.
What I'm saying is, the feed ramp was LONGER before I made the mod... and, it looks like KT's changed the timing like I did, too. Take a look at the inside of the barrel lug where the assembly pin goes. See how the area towards the muzzle end matches mine? You can see if you look closely where I modified mine...
Now, the two look almost the same! They've taken off a significant amount of material from the lug's initial break-point...
Flyer
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
hand chambered and........

I did what Blackhawk suggested, hand chambered a round with the slide then dropped the magazine to look. And the top round had moved forward and there wasn't any inertia to cause it!! The nose of the bullet was past the edge of the magazine where it would get hit by the ramp!!
I can't make this happen by just stripping the top round by hand with the magazine out of the pistol. The round underneath stays put when I do it that way.
It's almost like something else is pushing the round underneath forward when the top round is being chambered by the slide.
Could there be some kind of drag from the raised portion in the back of the slide that nudges the round forward?????

BTW, Blackhawk, the smiley hits on my follower went away after I did Flyer's ramp mod. But I still have the smileys on the bullets noses. I don't think we can rule out inertia (but maybe) or the second round getting nudged forward someway just yet.

Here is what I'm going to test next.......
1. Load magazine
2. Hand chamber first round
3. Remove magazine and examine
4. If top round has moved forward, push it back
5. Replace magazine
6. Fire
7. Remove magazine
8. Hand cycle slide to eject unfired round
9. Examine for smiley
10. Examine magazine just removed.
11. If top round has moved forward, push it back
12. Replace magazine
13. Repeat steps 2., 3. and if round has moved forward again, this time leave it as is (forward, just like it is)
14. Replace magazine, repeat steps 6., 7., 8., 9., 10.
15. Record results.

I'll try to do it this week.

This whole episode is getting to be a paradox with different barrels and some have smileys and some don't. We have opened Pandora's Box. What in heck is Kel Tec doing? Using us new owners as guinea pigs to see which serial nos work?

Somethings got to give and soon. True, we paid a low cost for this pistol and it's fun to work on. But we still have the problem and it gets more mysterious the more we find out.

Unless I get rid of the smileys I'm ready to make a warranty claim for my pistol.

og.......who's running out of patience!! :evil:
 

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So, OG, you think this is one of those "are we having fun yet?" situations? :D

I always enjoy this type of discussion because I like to know how things I have or am interested in work. Besides, everybody else is doing all the heavy lifting.... :)
 

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I love Harley's pictures!

Man after my own heart!

Here are some more for comparison. Again, this is a gun that came directly from KT last week - A restamped serial number 006xx. Sorry, I don't own calipers...

ppmd - who owns a closet exhibitionist P-3AT
 

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ppmd,
Nice pics indeed.
It seems, from rough measurements (I'm not at home now and don't have my calipers), that KT delayed the unlocking even more than I did... tomorrow I'll have both my barrel and a new one in hand, along with calipers.
But, that's certainly what it looks like.
We'll see... maybe if we continue investigating this we'll stumble onto some heretofore undreamed of principle of physics, and find a way to just go ahead and chamber the thing safely in 9mm, with tools from Lowes!!!
Hey, anything's possible... :mrgreen:
Flyer
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I've got it......

OK guys, see what you think of this..I think I have figured it out. It's midnight here so after this post I'm turning in.

It's not all the feed ramp on the barrel. Doing the feed ramp mod will help but not get rid of the smileys. At least not for me.
After you hand load the first round with the slide, before you fire, the next round is getting pushed forward in the magazine. The bullet nose sticks over the mag edge. The thing pushing it forward is not inertia, my first theory, but it is the long, narrow ramp inside the slide at the back. This ramp is the one that recocks the hammer. Combined with the slippery inside surface of the magazine, there is no resistance to pushing the round forward when the slide returns to battery by action of the recoil spring.
Load a magazine and try it. Hand load the first round with the slide. Remove the magazine and see if the top round is now pushed forward. Depending on how much friction is in your mag it may be pushed forward a lot.
Now, replace the loaded magazine and cycle the slide by hand until all the rounds have been ejected.
Remove the magazine and with a bright light look up the magazine well and you will, or should see a faint brassy colored line on the long, narrow ramp where it rubbed each round that was cycled.
I went back to the workbench and polished the surface of that ramp (and actually tapered off the front end a little first with a flat needle file). Also roughened the inside very top of the magazine some more where the rim of the cartridge rubs.
Now when I do the cycle test the second round (that ends up on top) is not pushed forward quite as much.
I intend to work on this some more later to see if I can reduce the forward push some more.

OK, Blackhawk, get to work. Do the cycle test I'm talking about and see if the round gets pushed forward in your P3AT. If so, then there is no way to stop a smiley without cutting a deeper groove in the feed ramp.
And a good gunsmith like Flyer needs to take a look at that long, narrow ramp in the slide and see if something can be done to it.

The ramp in the slide and a slippery magazine could also be causing norfdet's double feeds.

I still plan to do the firing tests outlined in my last post.

I'll check back with you guys tommorrow for your comments.

Cheers,
og..........feeling better already, goodnight!! :wink: :wink:
 

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Re: I've got it......

oldgranpa said:
The thing pushing it forward is not inertia, my first theory, but it is the long, narrow ramp inside the slide at the back. This ramp is the one that recocks the hammer.
You're right about the feed ramp riding the top round, but it only does so when the slide's moving to the rear. The front of that ramp is what catches the back of the round to be loaded and strips it from the mag to shove it into the chamber. The "being loaded" round prevents the round below it from contacting the slide ramp. The only time the slide ramp would ride the top round going forward is if the slide didn't move back far enough to allow the back of the round being loaded to fall off the front edge of the ramp so it could strip it. The only "thing" that rides the "smiley suspect" round forward is the round above it getting stripped by the slide ramp.

All that is true unless, of course, I'm wrong.... :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
More checking needed

Blackhawk,
It was late when I looked at that last night and I think we are both partly right. Since I can't see what exactly is going on when the slide cycles and a round is being chambered, I don't know how much tolerance is in there. (See edit below)
I get the big forward push on the round only when I cycle the slide with the magazine in the pistol. I've tried your method of pushing the top round out by hand, and yes, the round underneath moves forward a tiny bit, but only 1/8" or less. When I cycle it with the slide the round on top has now moved forward over 1/4". Maybe more in some pistols depending on how slippery the magazine is.

So something else has to be going on besides just the top round pushing the second round forward, and I think what it is...
the second round is popping up before the first round is completely chambered allowing the narrow slide ramp to contact it momentarily, but just enough to nudge it forward some more. Enough so that during firing, inertia does play a small part holding the round forward long enough for the barrel feed ramp to hit the bullet nose.
If all this is the case, then roughing up the magazine inside isn't going to solve the problem and we are back to square one,..... and doing Flyer's feed ramp mod, maybe doing it twice, is the only way to eliminate or reduce the smileys.
More checking needed.
Flyer, where are you?
og

Edited to add results of additional checking...

Blackhawk,
remove the recoil spring so you can do this test. replace the barrel in the slide and put it back on the frame with the assembly pin in place. Without the recoil spring.
Now load 2 rounds in the magazine. Open the slide all the way back, insert the magazine so you can see the top round and it's relation to the breech.
You have to do this next step under a really bright light.
Carefully, with both hands, move the slide forward and watch as it picks up the top round moving it into the chamber.
And, shazzamm!, it pops up into the chamber half way through the cycle so now the round underneath is in contact with the long, narrow ramp on the slide.
Move the slide all the way forward into battery. Remove the magazine and there it is, the round now on top has moved forward!!

I went back to the workbench and roughened the inside of the magazine somemore at the back where the rim of the cartridge rubs. Now when I do the cycle test above, the second round still moves forward but not as much anymore.

I'm hoping to get to fire it this week to see if these theories are any good.

Get back to work, old Blackhawk, and do the above check under a bright light and see if you agree.

og............I think now it's all the fault of the crappy MecGar magazine. :p :p
 

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oldgranpa,
I think the only thing that's gonna COMPLETELY eliminate the smilies is the ramp mod.
What we're not remembering is that, whether or not the slide actually moves the rounds in the magazine fore and aft, they're CERTAINLY kicked all the way forwards by the hefty recoil, which takes place mostly after the slide has completed cycling.
Flyer
 

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After reading all the posts, I decided it was time (past time?) to check my P3AT for smileys. I bought by Kel-Tec 9/13 and sent it back to Florida 9/22 for FTE, Stovepipes, and brass to the head. I never got enough rounds through without FTE and Stovepipes to bother with smileys. By the time I got it back on 10/11 it had been pretty well determined that smileys weren't detrimental to your health. After running hundred (that's right :D :D ) of rounds through without a problem of any kind, I had pretty well put smileys out of my mind. It was only after monitoring this thread I decided I better check my gun and see how bad of a problem I might have. I didn't go to the range, so I didn't put many rounds through it (went out the back door to a small hill, my neighbors are to close to use this all the time). I did fire one magazine. I ejected the magazine after firing each round and checked the top round in the magazine; I didn't find any smileys. Sorry to muddy the waters :oops: , but thought I ought to post--Almost forgot, I do have slight smileys on both of my magazines followers. This is a slight indentation, not the deep groove seen in ppmd's pictures of his mags. After posting, I will try to get some pictures and post.

Dan

Serial number of gun is 0031XX
 
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Michigan Dan, I have the same problems with mine that you had with yours. What did KT do to yours that we could all do to ours that would fix these problems. I did a light F&B to the feed ramp, chamber, rails and other key areas. After 50 rounds today I had a few cases in the forehead which, I can live with. I had a good string of fire, 40 or so before I had a doublefeed *(see pic). This could have been grip, running dry, etc. I am preparing for more work with the pistol (polish with the dremel), this could all be sped up however if we could post the fixes that KT is doing at the factory.
 

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oldgranpa,
Yep... in fact, I'll go ahead and make this thread a "sticky", so it'll stay on top and we can find it immediately, for late-breaking info!
Flyer
 
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