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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Posted smiley data on my new P3AT on KTOG just before I got activated here. Might have to scroll down the url to see my post with the smiley pic. Note my conclusion, the P3AT is great! (It was really great, even though I was using Flyers favorite ammo! :shock: :lol: )

[deleted url since the post has been deleted. I will post the thread with setback data later. Edited Nov.29th noon.]

Anyway, what is your latest thinking about smileys? Is there no concern since Marty posted his setback data awhile back?
Should I go ahead and do the mod to my feed ramp?
Thought KT had done all that on the new H serial numbers.

Wondering?
og :?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Went ahead and did the simely mod to the ramp..

Hello again, KTRangers,
Well, after reading all old posts on the subject of smileys I could find I decided I just didn't like this smiley thing. So after all the Thanksgiving eating and a good nap today, I did the ramp job that Flyer showed us in his old post:

[Edited today, Nov 29, to remove the url. To see Flyer's pics and instructions, go to the new Articles section and also his thread labeled P3AT Feed Ramp, etc. on this forum]

Do I recommend it?? Let me put it this way, if an old metallurgist can't do it, then nobody can do it. However, if you decide to do the mod, like Flyer said, you are on your own, it is completely your decision.

If you decide to, then my advise is to follow Flyer's picture exactly, and use needle files the way he says to. Ordinary big file is too much. Fortunately I have a bunch of needle files and making the cut wasn't too hard. First I marked a little curve on the bottom and top with a black marker. Be sure to not cut off the two ears, one on each side and shown in his photo.
I'm still pretty good with a dremel tool so I used that to finish the curve and blend it into the ramp. And then I used the felt tip with polish compound to put a mirror finish on the job, including the whole ramp while I was at it.

If you have some experience with working with metal or any fine hobby work you can probably handle this mod. If you have no such experience and don't have needle files or are not real good with a dremel tool, then don't do it yourself. The barrel steel is heat treated and is hard, which is good, but filing it is slow. Lot of patience and bright light needed. Also need to clamp the barrel in a bench vise using thin flat wood strips on each side to protect it.

I don't know if Flyer even wants to talk about this anymore. Some jerk troll at the other site gave him a real bad time about it, and the moderators just ignored the jerk. (Flyer, remember that?) But those who have done it already say it works. I feel confident it will in mine also. Doing the little check after the mod shows the ramp should not hit the round under the top one anymore. And even if it does it will be just a tiny smiley, not the big dent. The mod does not affect alignment of the top round being loaded either.

Just one more note. Two little pieces fell out of my pistol while disassembled, the recoil spring retainer up front, and the little ejector insert on the frame. If they fall out for you, just pick them up and clean them off and replace. But be aware that they can fall out and possibly get lost.

Let you know later how my pistol does.
og :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Go! Flyer!

Great stuff, Flyer,
With your pictures and instructions anyone with good hands and right tools can do it. Also do your flyer wire mod with pics for the P32. (Still working on your book??)

That what's so much fun about the Kel Tec P-pistols, we can work on them ourselves making the little mods to improve an already great product. And for around $250 and a few little tweeks we get a pistol that fits in our pocket that beats the $400 and $600 bunch anyday.

Cheers again,
og :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
KTRangers with new P3ATs....Go for it!!

Unsafe,
good going!! I haven't fired mine with the mod yet, range closed, Thanksgiving and all that. Our outdoor range is closed for duck season, it's on a wildlife refuge and surrounded by water. The ducks congregate there where they are safe and they don't like the noise at the range, so they close it.
Hope to check the ramp mod out next week, I'll have to go to the indoor range in Huntsville.


Cheers,
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Range test on first ramp mod

Range test today and still have a small smiley, about .003" setback is all on UMC 95gr FMJ. Accuracy was only slightly better. BUT, NO MALFUNCTIONS with any ammo tested!!!
Also tested Speer 90gr Gold Dot JHP and Winchester Silvertip 85gr JHP and getting small dents on petals of hollowpoint each side. The Silvertip was worse since it has a different wider mouth contour than Speer.
Interesting measurements on OAL shows all three rounds tested have nearly the same initial OAL of .970" +/- .001".
Later today, I found some Speer Lawman 95gr FMJ (didn't get to test it) that also has the same OAL of .970"

Worked on the ramp somemore, cut it a little deeper and wider. Maybe get to try it again next week.

My latest philosophy after todays test and reading the data on the Marshall site for the P3AT with hollowpoints is this.......

1. If you don't care don't do the ramp mod.

2. If you care but will not fire the pistol much and just carry it as a secondary BUG, you don't need the ramp mod.

3. If you care and will carry JHP ammo and want it to expand then you better do the ramp job and check it until there is no damage to your ammo.

CU next time with more results,
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
smiley statistics and main concern todate....

Murray,
Try what Flyer says, the smileys only show up when you fire a round and it is the one on top of the magazine (and every one after that) getting hit during the sharp recoil and cycling and re-chambering. (You chamber the first round by hand cycling, before you fire, if you get what I mean.) The round with the smiley is then in the chamber after you have fired and the slide cycles. So like Flyer says, drop the magazine, and on a towel cycle the slide by hand so the round drops out of the chamber.
Marty at Kel Tec has confirmed that smileys do exist with the P3AT but they have not made the ramp mod on new serial nos being shipped. This would be an added machining job that probably doesn't fit into a CNC machine just yet.

Taking his data and mine and doing a statistical calculation I find the mean setback from a smiley to be .005" with a std. deviation of .0025". That means a maximum average setback of .0075" could be expected. Marty thinks smiley setbacks are still within SAMMI limits and should not be a problem. He didn't post what kind of ammo he used but converting his metric data the rounds OAL were in the .976" range, which is longer than
the .970" OAL ammo I used. He also did not say if he tried more than one P3AT for his tests.

I think most of us agree that smileys are not a safety problem. Some limited data was posted a long while ago showing the velocity was not affected much by a smiley. But, I feel like smileys do affect accuracy.

What then, is the biggest concern?? I believe, as others do, it is the damage being done to the nose of JHP rounds where the sides of the "petals" are being pushed in. This may prevent expansion and may even cause a round to 'keyhole' in flight. Especially if you plan to carry JHP in your P3AT for primary defense. For many, the P3AT is all that can be carried under certain conditions without printing. (Regardless of what the stopping power experts say.) Therefore, I still recommend Flyer's ramp mod if you care about all this, with, of course, the statement that it is your decision and responsibilty to do it right. And like me, it may not be enough the first try and you will have to do more work on the ramp to get it right. The P3AT is a wonderful design that we can do a mod like this ourselves with ordinary tools. Makes you appreciate gunsmiths better.

The very best picture of the damage to JHP ammo was posted awhile back by Gnemesis. I have taken the liberty of reposting his excellent picture here. Hope he forgives me.
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
FMJ and smileys.....also a new theory on cause of smileys

Murray,
If all you will carry is FMJ in your P3AT then smileys are not that big of a concern. Accuracy wasn't too bad with my P3AT before I did the ramp mod.


Also, here is a new theory about smileys.......

Another theory about the cause of smileys occured to me after my first ramp mod. I wondered why I still had a little smiley
even since doing the check with only the barrel in the frame, and it looked like the ramp could not touch the nose of the round.

My theory is this...based on physics, inertia may play a part during recoil, which is a very fast, sharp jolt. The slide and entire pistol starts back but the top round in the magazine wants to remain stationary for a brief microsecond moment. The round stays where it was, due to inertia,... meaning it seems to move forward in the magazine in relation to all other parts that are moving back. Thus, it seems the bullet nose sticks forward allowing the ramp to hit it, even with the mod partly done. of course this may be all wrong if the slide moving back would prevent the top round from sliding forward. But I think there is enough room in the top of the slide so it won't touch the round in the mag.
You can try pushing the round in the magazine and it moves forward quite easily. There is very little resistance. Looking at
the magazines for my Springfield 1911 .45, there is a good bit of resistance for rounds moving forward. The .45 mags are bare steel, no paint or bluing.
I'm not sure if anything can be done to modify the magazine. It would have to be at the back end, maybe bending the
edges in more to tighten things up. Not too much or it may cause a FTF if it's too tight.
And any oil in there would make the resistance less. I wiped the inside top of the magazine with a paper napkin, and wiped all the bullets before loading and there seems to be a little more resistance. I may even remove the bluing inside at the top later and roughen it up a little. The smiley hit on the mag follower may stop with the ramp mod, but if this theory is true, you might still have smileys after the mod like I did.

Flyer, could you take a look at this and see what you think.

Maybe all Kel Tec needs is a magazine designed so that the
top round cannot slide forward so easy, such as a little tighter at the top and no black, slippery bluing inside the top.. That
would be a cheap, easy fix.
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
top round!!

Flyer,
It's got to be the top round in the mag getting hit in my P3AT when the slide, and barrel, are moving back. And it's the top round that is the next one being chambered. There are no smileys on the top round in my mag after firing, only the one that is in the chamber. It was the top round just before getting chambered.
I wondered about that too, but put on your logic hat and review the sequence. If the ramp mod was the only thing that mattered then my smileys should have gone away with the first try. If it was the second round getting hit, and not the top one, why do I have a smiley on the chambered round after firing the first round that was chambered by hand? Are we all having a different event here?

Blackhawk,
I just took my dremel tool with small emery tip and roughened the top inside of my magazine to get the slippery bluing off. Just the back part where the rim of the top round slides forward. The bluing is too hard for just sandpaper on a stick to touch it. Cleaned it out good and now the rounds have some resistance to moving out. I'll try to test this out at the range this week.

The mystery thickens.
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Now we're getting somewhere!!

Again, Harley comes up with some of his great pictures showing the "mystery" in sharp detail. Good question, Harley, same question I'm having after doing the ramp mod. I can't find where anything is hitting by doing the same test you are showing. So why am I still having smileys after the first mod try? My first mod was deep, just like Flyer's pictures.

And someone, believe it was Murray, is not seeing smileys at all. Does Murray have a different kind of magazine? Or, does he have a "beta" model of a new ramp design in his P3AT that none of us have yet?

Blackhawk's analysis sheds additional light on the probable cause being the slippery insides of the magazine. Not just the top round moving forward but the one underneath it too. This is a no-win situation and may have to take off a lot more of the ramp than we should to make it stop.

Do some of us have a different make of magazine?? Are the earlier models furnished with a different style or finish on the magazine.
Is the slippery magazine the reason norfdet is having double feeds in his post above?
Mine is a MecGar, made in Italy which is a fairly standard, widely used, lower cost magazine. MecGars wouldn't work with my 1911 .45 pistol and caused FTF's. Was it the slippery inside enamel or bluing job? The magazines I'm using now with my .45 are made by MetalForm, stainless steel bare metal, not polished and work good.
Based on what Blackhawk has suggested, I believe I'll go back and roughen the inside of the mag a little deeper to put some resistance on the second round as well. A little rust may help.

Maybe Kel Tec is aware of all this too and that's why they are being silent about it. Hopefully they are working on a fix, and as much as we thank Flyer for getting us involved in this, Kel Tec may have something like Blackhawk's ramp design in mind. Maybe they ought to try a bare metal stainless magazine first.

Time will tell. More questions than anwers, but we are getting close to some answers. In the meantime keep testing and posting ideas.
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
hand chambered and........

I did what Blackhawk suggested, hand chambered a round with the slide then dropped the magazine to look. And the top round had moved forward and there wasn't any inertia to cause it!! The nose of the bullet was past the edge of the magazine where it would get hit by the ramp!!
I can't make this happen by just stripping the top round by hand with the magazine out of the pistol. The round underneath stays put when I do it that way.
It's almost like something else is pushing the round underneath forward when the top round is being chambered by the slide.
Could there be some kind of drag from the raised portion in the back of the slide that nudges the round forward?????

BTW, Blackhawk, the smiley hits on my follower went away after I did Flyer's ramp mod. But I still have the smileys on the bullets noses. I don't think we can rule out inertia (but maybe) or the second round getting nudged forward someway just yet.

Here is what I'm going to test next.......
1. Load magazine
2. Hand chamber first round
3. Remove magazine and examine
4. If top round has moved forward, push it back
5. Replace magazine
6. Fire
7. Remove magazine
8. Hand cycle slide to eject unfired round
9. Examine for smiley
10. Examine magazine just removed.
11. If top round has moved forward, push it back
12. Replace magazine
13. Repeat steps 2., 3. and if round has moved forward again, this time leave it as is (forward, just like it is)
14. Replace magazine, repeat steps 6., 7., 8., 9., 10.
15. Record results.

I'll try to do it this week.

This whole episode is getting to be a paradox with different barrels and some have smileys and some don't. We have opened Pandora's Box. What in heck is Kel Tec doing? Using us new owners as guinea pigs to see which serial nos work?

Somethings got to give and soon. True, we paid a low cost for this pistol and it's fun to work on. But we still have the problem and it gets more mysterious the more we find out.

Unless I get rid of the smileys I'm ready to make a warranty claim for my pistol.

og.......who's running out of patience!! :evil:
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I've got it......

OK guys, see what you think of this..I think I have figured it out. It's midnight here so after this post I'm turning in.

It's not all the feed ramp on the barrel. Doing the feed ramp mod will help but not get rid of the smileys. At least not for me.
After you hand load the first round with the slide, before you fire, the next round is getting pushed forward in the magazine. The bullet nose sticks over the mag edge. The thing pushing it forward is not inertia, my first theory, but it is the long, narrow ramp inside the slide at the back. This ramp is the one that recocks the hammer. Combined with the slippery inside surface of the magazine, there is no resistance to pushing the round forward when the slide returns to battery by action of the recoil spring.
Load a magazine and try it. Hand load the first round with the slide. Remove the magazine and see if the top round is now pushed forward. Depending on how much friction is in your mag it may be pushed forward a lot.
Now, replace the loaded magazine and cycle the slide by hand until all the rounds have been ejected.
Remove the magazine and with a bright light look up the magazine well and you will, or should see a faint brassy colored line on the long, narrow ramp where it rubbed each round that was cycled.
I went back to the workbench and polished the surface of that ramp (and actually tapered off the front end a little first with a flat needle file). Also roughened the inside very top of the magazine some more where the rim of the cartridge rubs.
Now when I do the cycle test the second round (that ends up on top) is not pushed forward quite as much.
I intend to work on this some more later to see if I can reduce the forward push some more.

OK, Blackhawk, get to work. Do the cycle test I'm talking about and see if the round gets pushed forward in your P3AT. If so, then there is no way to stop a smiley without cutting a deeper groove in the feed ramp.
And a good gunsmith like Flyer needs to take a look at that long, narrow ramp in the slide and see if something can be done to it.

The ramp in the slide and a slippery magazine could also be causing norfdet's double feeds.

I still plan to do the firing tests outlined in my last post.

I'll check back with you guys tommorrow for your comments.

Cheers,
og..........feeling better already, goodnight!! :wink: :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
More checking needed

Blackhawk,
It was late when I looked at that last night and I think we are both partly right. Since I can't see what exactly is going on when the slide cycles and a round is being chambered, I don't know how much tolerance is in there. (See edit below)
I get the big forward push on the round only when I cycle the slide with the magazine in the pistol. I've tried your method of pushing the top round out by hand, and yes, the round underneath moves forward a tiny bit, but only 1/8" or less. When I cycle it with the slide the round on top has now moved forward over 1/4". Maybe more in some pistols depending on how slippery the magazine is.

So something else has to be going on besides just the top round pushing the second round forward, and I think what it is...
the second round is popping up before the first round is completely chambered allowing the narrow slide ramp to contact it momentarily, but just enough to nudge it forward some more. Enough so that during firing, inertia does play a small part holding the round forward long enough for the barrel feed ramp to hit the bullet nose.
If all this is the case, then roughing up the magazine inside isn't going to solve the problem and we are back to square one,..... and doing Flyer's feed ramp mod, maybe doing it twice, is the only way to eliminate or reduce the smileys.
More checking needed.
Flyer, where are you?
og

Edited to add results of additional checking...

Blackhawk,
remove the recoil spring so you can do this test. replace the barrel in the slide and put it back on the frame with the assembly pin in place. Without the recoil spring.
Now load 2 rounds in the magazine. Open the slide all the way back, insert the magazine so you can see the top round and it's relation to the breech.
You have to do this next step under a really bright light.
Carefully, with both hands, move the slide forward and watch as it picks up the top round moving it into the chamber.
And, shazzamm!, it pops up into the chamber half way through the cycle so now the round underneath is in contact with the long, narrow ramp on the slide.
Move the slide all the way forward into battery. Remove the magazine and there it is, the round now on top has moved forward!!

I went back to the workbench and roughened the inside of the magazine somemore at the back where the rim of the cartridge rubs. Now when I do the cycle test above, the second round still moves forward but not as much anymore.

I'm hoping to get to fire it this week to see if these theories are any good.

Get back to work, old Blackhawk, and do the above check under a bright light and see if you agree.

og............I think now it's all the fault of the crappy MecGar magazine. :p :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
I'm still not there but getting close......

Range test today and not quite there yet and still have some smileys. The smileys get more visible after about 25 rounds fired. Noted that the long, narrow ramp in slide had become fouled with black soot so that it no longer had any lub remaining. Rounds in the mag were being pushed forward more then also.

Testing below started with a clean, lubricated pistol with the ramp mod done twice, the narrow ramp in the
slide polished and lightly greased, and the magazine inside at top, back roughened (but obviously not enough).


Test 1. hand load round with slide, remove mag and measure gap on round, it moved forward..<1/16",,pushed round back , replace mag, fire, remove mag, eject round in chamber,
NO SMILEY. UMC 95gr FMJ

Test 2. repeat 1. above, except do not push round back (leave forward <1/8"),, fire, remove mag and eject round. Slight scratch?? OAL before .966, after .964, setback .002"?? UMC 95gr FMJ

Test 3. repeat 2. above with Winchester Silvertip 85gr JHP. SMALL SMILEY & DENTED PETALS.

Test 4. repeat 1. above (no gap on round in mag) with Speer 90gr Gold Dot JHP. MINOR SMILEY. OAL before .938", after .939" (tip of hollowpoint was actually raised as if squeezed)

Test 5. repeat 1. above (no gap in mag) with Speer Lawman 95gr FMJ. NO SMILEY, SLIGHT SCRATCH.

All Silvertip rounds examined had some form of smiley damage to the petals on the nose of the hollowpoint.

Had one malfunction, a FTE with Winchester Silvertip after about 25 rounds. The pistol was getting dirty with soot at this point. This was a round that had been previously examined and was reloaded with the smiley. Examining the case after removal under magnification showed the extractor had cut through the rim, and the length of the fired case was longer than average at .971".
Examining many of the ejected cases showed all Silvertip brass had deformed more under the extractor than any of the other brands. UMC had the least amount of deformation under the extractor. Speer all looked normal. The Silvertip 85gr rated velocity is 1000fps, higher than any of the others and this coupled with the softer looking brass case makes it a borderline candidate for FTE's. I will not carry .380 Silvertips.

Flyer is correct in saying that the recoil, (the inertia in my first theory), is always going to shift rounds forward in the mag allowing smileys to occur and the only real cure is the ramp mod. I agree with this but the slippery magazine insides adds to the problem allowing rounds to shift forward as much as 3/8" where they will always get hit. Why some haven't had this, I don't know. The mag is not blued, it's painted with slippery black enamel, which is OK under the follower but adds to the trouble at the top.

Anyway, I have been back to the workbench again today and deepened the ramp mod some more and roughened the mag top back inside with a diamond tool by hand (the dremel got the enamel off but left it too smooth). I also used a center punch with a hammer on the mag outside top back, both sides to put
a small dent and tighten up the mag back (may have to do it again). In addition, when I polished the new cut on the feed ramp I also repolished the narrow ramp in the slide.

Just hand cycling the pistol now has reduced the gap on the second round down to < 1/32".

I won't get to test this again until next year. But in the meantime, I will be carrying my P3AT with the Speer 90gr Gold Dot JHP. Seems like the best alternative for now.

BTW, my accuracy wasn't too hot today, stayed in COM on an IDPA type target, but the P3AT is definitly not intended for target competition.

Cheers,
og
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
My Final Smiley Report and Conclusions

Made it to the small range in the nearby National Forest (40miles) and finished tests after 3rd ramp mod and mods to the magazine. Pictures of my ramp and magazine are posted here and in the next 2 posts for your amusement.

Smileys in my P3AT have been reduced to an insignificant minimum!!

Fired FMJ and JHP into a wet newspaper pack and checked for smileys along the way. Couldn't even see a hit on the JHP's. After about 20 rounds and the narrow ramp inside the slide got sooty, the last round was getting pushed forward a bit and a tiny scratch would occur on FMJ.

My Conclusions Follow.

1. The ramp mod is important to stop hits on the mag follower.
By itself, a minimum ramp mod will not stop smileys altogether.

2. The Mec Gar magazine furnished with the P3AT is also responsible, maybe more so, for causing smileys to begin with the second round. This is due to the slippery enamel inside the magazine which allows the rounds after the first one loaded to be pushed forward by the narrow ramp in the back of the slide.

3. The hefty recoil coupled with the slippery magazine causes the round to move forward even more during firing putting it in the path of a hit by the feed ramp during cycling.

4. Modification of the magazine is also required to stop or reduce smileys. This requires grinding off the enamel inside at the top near the back and putting a dent in the mag on each side near the back. These steps increase friction and reduce the forward push of the round.

5. Smileys, without any mods, are detrimental to JHP rounds and will deform the 'petals' closing the hollow point.

6. Edited out this conclusion due to lack of evidence on my part. Read details why in my other posts down below.

My modifications have been drastic. My first picture follows:

 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Ramp mod picture 2

Enlarged picture of my drastic ramp mod follows.

I should add there were absolutely NO malfunctions today in spite of this severe cut on my ramp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Magazine modification

Picture follows with magazine modifications. Hard to get a good pic of this, but maybe you can understand it.
With a clean pistol, and the narrow ramp inside the slide polished and lightly greased, the forward push of the round is <1/32", even after firing. And it does not cause any kind of malfunction.
Only after firing over 20 rounds does the narrow slide ramp get sooty and cause the forward push to increase to where a very tiny smiley occurs on FMJ's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
One more thing..

There are thousands of P3AT's out there in the hands of people who don't know zilch about firearms.

Post edited due to what I now think is an incorrect conclusion about reloading before the magazine is empty. See post below for details.

Have fun!! Your comments, criticism, ideas, pictures will be most welcome. I don't want to be Tonto with the Lone Ranger (Flyer) on how to fix this issue. Enter in!!

og 8) 8)
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Before we go off the deep end.........

I think I may be getting ahead of myself with a conclusion I made that I haven't really checked out.

I think we are making a wrong assumption that a round remaining in the magazine has a smiley and gets worse by reloading before the magazine is empty. After all, that round doesn't get hit unless the gun is fired and then it will be loaded into the chamber leaving the magazine empty.

To review the sequence...
1. magazine loaded in pistol
2. round hand loaded by cycling slide
3. narrow ramp in slide nudges next round in mag forward
4. no smiley yet
5. fire pistol, slide cycles to eject case and on the way back the now top round in magazine gets hit by ramp
6. cycle back completes and slide picks up the now top round
7. about half way through the chambering of top round it pops up into alignment with chamber
8. round underneath pops up to top of magazine
9. as chambering completes cycle, the narrow slide ramp nudges round forward
10. sequence repeats itself.

Therefore it just doesn't seem logical that a round being left in the magazine has a smiley, yet. If this is the case, then Kel Tec has no reason to care about it.

I plan to do more looking at this next time at the range.

See what you think and find out next time you go to the range.

og
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Kimdo's excellent analysis

I'm putting a copy of Kimdo's analysis on the magazine release problem here for safe keeping. It's a new part of the smiley problem.

Quote:
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:21 pm Post subject: Upon further testing...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My best guess is that the problem is a combination of all of the above suggestions. Yes the magazine does drop out when shooting left handed. Here is what I think happened.
1. With the A-grip too tight or just because of my grip, the recoil caused my thumb to swipe over the mag release partially depressing the button.
2. The barrel slamming into the 2nd round exerted downward pressure on the magazine and rounded or sheared off the top edge of the mag catch. At least it looks chewed up.
3. Now that it is rounded or shorter, just the impact of the smiley problem is enough to push the magazine catch out of its slot and drop the magazine.
Solution looks to be a new magazine release button and spring and a modified grip with a more definitive thumb shelf. I'll extend the ridge just above the release button to shield it.
It is also time to take care of the smiley problem which should eliminate the downward pressure. Needle files get ordered tomorrow.
I could be totally wrong but it is my best guess.
Kim
ps Flyer, thanks for the kind offer but since I'll be working on the barrel and grip there will be plenty of time to get the parts from KT after Jan. 4. I need another magazine and a few other parts anyway. Thanks again for the offer and always for the expert advise.
End of quote.

og :)
 
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