[Katy]

Okay, been going to the range a lot. I've gotten a ton of advice from people over on the ktog blah blah blah forum about how to improve my shooting. Any more that you have here is appreciated (hint hint Flyer).

Anyways, I've been experiencing the ejected brass trying to scalp me. After 100 rounds on Wednesday night, I have two bruises on my forehead from this happening - actually got hit three times in the face with the brass. Has anyone else experienced this and is it normal?

I was using some reloads (I now know its a no-no) and had a live round jam so bad, it took two men with their brut force to get the slide back and get the round out. They suggested taking the gun apart before firing again to make sure there was no damage, they did not have a clue how to do it (tee hee hee), so I took my little friend apart for them. We checked it out everything looked pretty good - whew. I think that is was just a crappy re-load in the first place ( I was not checking them before loading them in the mag). I was able to just light pull the shot from the brass on the round that jammed (pic attached). I thought it was an interesting lesson on NOT to use reloads, unless you've done them yourself.

 

[gazpacho]

That brass casing in the forehead is one of the benefits of ownership. Happens to us all. Here are two suggestions to cut down on that. 1) How the gun tighter. 2) Get some sort of finger extension on the magazine. The problem lies in the recoil of the gun. If it were locked in a vise when fired, all of the casings would actually fly up and over the shooter. Recoil, and the lack of a solid purchase on the grip cause the barrel to flip up drastically, and put the ejection path square in your forehead.

 

[Midiman]

3) Wear a hat.

4) Try some UMC FMJ ammo for practice. I've not suffered a single malfunction with this ammo. For carry, I'm using Federal Hydra-Shok Personal Defense .380... no malfunctions with that either. I have a few other brands in the ammo dump to try out but, so far with those two, I'm happy. I've only had two cases skip across the top of my hair line... no scalp contact yet (I obviously don't take my own advice and wear a hat).

 

[Flyer]

Katy,
Welcome! Glad you found your way here and got it all sorted out!
Yokay...
Yep, the brass to the noggin is pretty much the norm. It's caused by the recoil of the little beast as it "torques" your wrist. By the time the empty case exits, it's pointed right atcher face!!! So, it's time to simply lock those wrists 'till they don't swivel up and down. It's not so much a matter of a tight grip, though that's good. Hold your shooting hand in front of you as your sitting reading this and make a fist like you're holding your pistol. With your other hand, grab your fist and move it up and down as if the pistol was in it, in full recoil. Do this a couple of times, then consciously lock that wrist, and now try forcing it up and down! You shouldn't be able to, even if your fist isn't tight. Practice this enough, and you'll lock up intuitively when you grasp the gun.
Re your accuracy problems: Again, not uncommon. Best thing to do is get a red-dot sticky and put it on a wall as an aiming point. Make sure your pistol is unloaded, and use a snap-cap for dry-firing.
Now, get into your shooting stance. Take a nickel and place it on the slide directly behind the front sight. Cover the dot with the front sight, forcing yourself to focus only on the sight, not the target or the rear sight. Just let them blur. This is crucial!
Squeeze the trigger in one smooth motion, as if you're simply closing it against your palm. Keep the sight steady on top of the target, and complete the pull, dropping the hammer without dislodging the nickel from the slide.
This is harder than it sounds! But, it's going to improve your accuracy in a BIG way. Practice, practice, practice until the nickel stays put and you drop the hammer on the dot every time.
Next time you hit the range you'll likely notice that your accuracy has doubled! Focus on front sight, let the target blur, cover target, squeeze trigger and follow through, and you'll be punching the center right outta those puppies!
Obviously you'll be dry-firing a lot, and the snap-cap I recommend is the A-Zoom. It's much better than the plastic ones and lasts almost forever.
Anyhow, try these exercises at home, and when you get to the range I'm betting you'll be happily surprised!!!
Flyer

 

[ppmd]

To the dismay of many here (I am sure), brass to the noggin' is NOT to be expected or tolerated. I had that problem initially with my P-3AT. Kel Tec sent me a replacement slide - still same problems. I had to send the entire gun back to Kel Tec. They finally restamped the same serial number on a new P-3AT and sent it back to me. ALL the problems I had: failure to feed, failure to eject, and brass to the forehead no longer occur now (except feeding problem using ONE particular type of ammo). I am doing NOTHING different when I shoot this gun as I do all my other handguns, which is the way it SHOULD be.

Just my 2 cents. Here is a pic of brass to forehead damage by the P-3AT I sent back to Kel Tec.

BTW, don't use reloads :roll:

 

[Midiman]

Bah! Stop pickin' those zits!

 

[Flyer]

Oh, yeah, about reloads:
It's a danged good thing I reload, or I couldn't afford to practice as much as I do with ANY of my guns, including the P-3AT.
And no, I'm NOT happy to report that the reason for brass to the face lies in the posture of one's wrist... but, KTRange is rather intended to be a "No-Spin Zone", and that's just the way it is.
Seems to me it's better to learn how to use the pistol properly, the way it WANTS to be used, than contort and distort the extractor into grabbing the case with a pit-bullish intensity so it tosses it into the adjoining county... you're talking about significant energy expenditure if you do that, and that's energy best used for reliable cycling of the action.
Flyer

 

[cloak]

I found if you wear a ballcap, the brass wont bother you as much. And make sure you have suitable eye protection. I was at the range thursday night of last week and one of the shells actually hit the lens. That one came from a friends hk .40 cal

 

[ppmd]

Re:

I found if you wear a ballcap, the brass wont bother you as much. And make sure you have suitable eye protection. I was at the range thursday night of last week and one of the shells actually hit the lens. That one came from a friends hk .40 cal

I don't mind the occasional spent brass from the shooter in the next lane. I do not wear a cap for shooting any of my pistols now. I do wear ear and eye protection. I don't think a cap should be a necessity or requirement shooting any pistol.

If you MUST wear a cap to protect your noggin', you might consider what might be wrong with your pistol. I don't think any Kel Tec pistol should require one to wear a cap.

ppmd

 

[Flyer]

Kinda off topic, but what the hey...
My CZ-52 chambered in 7.62 Tokarev throws it's cases directly to the right almost 40 FEET!!!
I've ALWAYS got to take the very last lane on the right at the range, or someone would get hurt. Those cases just come whistlin' right outta that gun...
On the other hand, I don't have to worry about extraction! Not a single FTE in a whole bunch of shootin'...
Flyer

 

[twentytwolover]

If all else fails, wear a baseball hat!

I always wear a baseball hat when I shoot. It keeps the range lights out of my eyes and keeps the errant brass off me.

For the record, my own P-3AT ejects brass almost straight up and mostly out in front of my range stall. Out of, say 50 rounds, maybe one will come straight back onto the bill of my cap.

You have to really grip this little beast tightly and hold a fixed wrist which is against my usual passive, relaxed shooting style.

I've also ordered the Bersa mag extensions so I can have a little something extra to hook onto; it may help the controllability of the P-3AT.

 

[angebar]

Hi Katy!
I agree with Flyer. As soon as I locked my wrists I stopped getting winged by brass. Being an exceptionally good-looking guy, you can imagine my concern about brass abrasion! Besides I don't like hats cept for my Harley helmet. Now that I lock my wrists my perfect forehead remains undinged!!!!
Just practice!!!!
Barry

 

[ruger]

I've had two Ruger P97's that ejected the brass directly to the forehead. On both of them I received a modified extractor from Ruger that fixed the problem pronto! I have and continue to believe the brass to the forehead is the extractor design on the P3AT

 

[grb-rcb]

My .02 worth

Hi Katy,

I've read your posts both on this site and the KTOG site with interest. I won't get into the brass to the head discussion except to say it hasn't happened to me. But then I'm used to shooting weapons that kick.

From what I've read, it seems to me part of your basic problem is you first began learning to shoot with the P3AT. While the P3AT is capable of reasonable accuracy for it's intened purpose, it's far from the ideal weapon for a beginner to start with.

It's not too late to start over now. I've always strongly recommended that a beginner start with a 22 of the appropriate persausion, revolver or pistol. In your case a 4 or 6 inch barrel Ruger, Colt Woodsman, or something along those lines would have been ideal.

After you've received competent instruction and sent a few bricks of 22's down range (spread out over many sessions) you'd be ready to move up. Choose something a little larger, both in caliber and in weapon weight (i.e. an all steel weapon) to dampen recoil. Then, after reasonqble proficency has been achieved with a centerfire, go back to the P3AT and remember to apply the basics.

Good luck and Keep Shooting,

 

[Harley]

Something like learning to ski by snowplowing down a black flag slope? Hey, at least after the P3AT, most other guns will seem tame!!

 

[Flyer]

Interesting...
I used to suscribe to the same theory, i.e., using a .22 for initial instruction.
Who would you think would be the first to say "Hey, the heck with this, gimme a real gun!" Men, right!
Wrong!
In my experience WOMEN are far better students than men, and aclimatize to the difference in action types, calibers, and even recoil much faster than men.
Just my experience, from almost twenty years of teaching members of both sexes...
Duckin' out now afore I get my head shot off!!!
Flyer

 

[twentytwolover]

Case in point: my wife.....

Flyer, I agree with your previous post. My gun-fearing wifey who is now 55, shot a handgun for only the second time in her life. It is my new Beretta Neos and with only minimal instruction she kept several clips of .22LR on one of those itty-bitty 9" targets at 7 yards. Sounds easy? Not if you knew the Missus. I kept telling her that, with practice, shooting was one skill she could eventually get better at than her husband.

 

[CherylT]

Flyer,
I’m not sure why you think you need to duck out before your get head shot off? My handgun safety instructor said the same thing you just did. And believe it or not I was number 2 out of four during the shooting part of the class and the only girl out of the four. :mrgreen: Number 1 went to a guy in the Air Force.
Twenty,
The hubby has a Beretta neos. I love it but he doesn’t like it all that much, says I shoot it better than him. That is unless he puts his pistol scope on it but then he wants distance. We also have a Taurus PT22. I think the hubby told me it’s the same action as the P32 and P3AT…? Which makes for great cheap practice.
Tc, Cheryl
:wink:

 

[cloak]

My brother and I went to the range not to long ago, and was wondering I was wearing a ball cap. I were a cap when I go to the range to keep those shells from hitting my head, but there is another reason why I were one. The brass from other people's gun in the indoor ranges..

 

[Guest]

katy and everyone else. My wife had the same problem getting hit in the forehead with empty brass with her p-11 i got her (got it when i got mine for a backup weapon) and i do not have that problem. I found it was her shooting style especially since she was not used to something with a fairly good recoil to it. to solve her problem, i made a slip over grip out of acrylic resin, that was slightly longer, and a little larger in width with finger grooves. I then installed this impromptu homemade slip on grip on her p-11 (which she carries in her purse when she goes out to work) and she felt more comfort from the gun, and now like myself has no problems with brass to the forehead. I believe it is just necessary to take a firmer stance with the weapon as far as grip and control of the wrists and forearms. I have had the opportunity to fire the P3AT that a fellow shooter owned. loved the way it fired, and i felt recoil wise it was very similar to the P-11. On a little different note, something i would love to see kel-tec team up and offer would be some kind of laser grips for the p-11, similar to the crimson trace ones.