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Discussion Starter #1
As I wrote in my previous post, I have found that PMC will not get smileys and hits with square footage!. I have always trusted Hydra-Shok for self-defence, but have always noticed light strikes on the primers and my gun hits slightly off center. I have tried these PMC 90gr. hollow points today and had no problems, the primer is wider by being not curved over like the Hydra-Shoks and the primers seem to be softer giving me good dents on the primers, they have large mouth caviteys so I think they would mushroom good! The rim is not cut to the v shape like Hydra-Shok and most other brands but they eject great!. But I have heard some people say good things about them and bad things about them but neither side has ever tried them in the kel-tec. I give them thumbs-up! but only fired 50 rounds, I would hate to bet my life on them and have somekind of misfire!, but on the other hand with the Hydra-Shok the light hits on the primer could also cause a misfire!. I just need to know if anyone knows a little about the PMC hollow points reliability in the kel-tec??
 

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PMC has always worked fine in my KTs, both the P-11 and P-3ATs.
PMC is actually owned by Winchester, manufactured in Korea. It's excellent, uniform ammo.
PMC makes some of the very best ammo on the market today, so I wouldn't worry about quality! In fact, I believe they're the very first rounds I tried in my P-3AT.
I like the Hydra-Shok rounds, but I don't think that in .380 the difference in hollowpoints is going to matter much. More important is reliability of function, and user confidence.
So.... if you like the PMC rounds best, and they function perfectly, I see no reason not to go ahead and use them! Also, if you've gone fifty rounds without a light strike, it's unlikely you'll experience one now.
Flyer
 

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I use hydra-shoks as my daily carry bullet. The 2nd magazine has the corbons in it. I also have one other mag that has 3 hydrashok and 3 corbon if the SHTF.

I carry hydrashoks also in my .38 special
 
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Flyer, I hate to disagree with you, but on the subject of PMC ammo being quaility ammo, I'm going to have to chime in.

I sincerely hope you never have the need to contact PMC due to a problem with their ammo resulting in a blown up gun or serious injury. Bottom line they (PMC) really don't give a turkey - or even a rear part of a rodent. This, in my opinion is due to their Korean roots, and the fact that the ammo is assembeled somewhere else a half a world away, by someone else. I don't know what the folks in Boulder City do, other that act as a warehouse / distribution point for stuff made in the asia, and hang up on (or just ignore) customers with important issues.

My example has nothing to do wth a malfunction in a KT, but please bear with me, it just might save you some fingers or an eye.

We had a customer blow up a NAA .22 magnum revolver in our range, and it was 100% the fault of the PMC ammo. Second shot from a new NAA she bought from us, a primer in the round next to the cylinder firing detonated firing two shots - one wasn't lined up in the barrel, seriously damaging the revolver - and the female shooter's face!

We attempted to contact PMC about this incident 3 times by phone, they hung up on us each time. I sent two emails detailing the accident, with photos of the damage, without response. I finally got them to put someone on the phone and the rather bored sounding supervisor said 'It isn't our fault, there is a defect in the NAA revolver, put the gun and the ammo in a box and send it to us the gun so we can determine what happened' (BTW, this is a violation of federal law for those "non FFL types" out there). Right... so PMC could convinently lose the gun and the ammo that blew it up, and the victim would have no evedence for the impending lawsuit. We finally had to get their attention through the victim's lawyer.

Interestingly enough, about a year later, we were contacted by a gentleman from near Miami who had exactly the same thing happen to him (NAA .22 magnum + PMC Predator ammo = explosion). Except he was permanently disfigured by the incident. The circular base of the .22 that in our range imbedded itself in the wall (I had to dig it out with a pocket knife - PMC logo stamp was still intact) went through this guy's thumb doing severe and permanent nerve damage to his hand. Bottom line was that his thumb became a practically useless appendage after the PMC .22 magnum blow up.

Normally, I would have thought that this would have been the fault of the gun, but I WAS THERE and was the first person to inspect the gun that blew up in our range. I watched it happen on the TV monitor. There were no burrs or errant pieces of metal to cause the detonation of 2 cylinders at once. There was no primer hit on the seperated base of the round I personally dug out of the plywood range divider. This kind of crap should never happen. But what really sealed it for me was the guy that came to visit us, with photos that looked exactly like what I had seen in our range - except his incident lead to a trip the the emergency room.

Both incidents happened with factory new PMC Predator .22 magnum ammo, that was just too darn much of a coincidence - the ammo had distinctly different lot numbers - and they occured about a year apart.

I have a .22 NAA revolver and have fired lots of rounds through it, never having a round fire next to the that should be firing. I've also never fired any PMC ammo in it, but not because of any reason other than I didn't have it in stock at the time - which I am now thankful for.

My point is that in my personal experience (I was the one that PMC hung up on 3 times) PMC is not to be trusted. I'm not saying all their ammo is bad based on the two .22's blowing up that I am aware of, but the simple fact was they wouldn't step up and take any responsibility at all. FWIW, NAA put a new barrel on the revolver free of charge after the lawyers got done.

That's not the kind of people I want to do business with, and BTW, I no longer stock any of their ammo in our range.
 
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We had a customer blow up a NAA .22 magnum revolver in our range, and it was 100% the fault of the PMC ammo.

'It isn't our fault, there is a defect in the NAA revolver

Interestingly enough, about a year later, we were contacted by a gentleman from near Miami who had exactly the same thing happen to him (NAA .22 magnum + PMC Predator ammo = explosion).
I could understand if different guns but same guns. Might it be a thin cylinder wall or a defect in the wall allowing a "hot charge" next to it to cause a discharge??

JMHO
 

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Bob,
Well, that certainly doesn't sound very good...
But, it's not just PMC ammo that's done this sort of thing...
Just recently I had to contact Hornady about some of their .380 ammo. Apparently the case was primered uncharged, 'cause it left a bullet lodged squarely in the center of my P-3AT's bore! I removed the bullet and received more, free ammo.
Bingo, it happened again! It certainly wasn't the gun!
Remington ammo has failed me in EVERY way possible. You name it, it's done it. Blown cases, separated case heads, blown rimfire seals (like it sounds like in your PMC example), overloads, split necks, and even one case in which a bullet fell out of the case as I was loading it into the mag!
I suppose I'm saying that pretty much ANY ammo is subject to QC problems, and maybe more some than the rest (CERTAINLY Remington!), but speaking PERSONALLY, I've always had good results with PMC.
Of course, individual mileage may vary!!!
Flyer
 
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Hi Flyer:

I understand that stuff happens with any and all ammo. I have an indoor range, and just about the time I think I've seen it all, something new happens. I've also seen more than my share of blown up guns that were replaced by the maker of the ammo in the gun when it went KB! The ammo maker took responsibility for their product, and CARED. My point was that when bad things happened to my cusomer in my range with PMC ammo, PMC in Boulder City DIDN'T CARE in the least, and hung up on me to prove it.

You indicated that when you had problems, the bullet maker made right, or at least took care of you. This is at the least what I'd expect from PMC, but alas, they didn't give a turkey. They did make a settlement when the injured customer got her attorney involved.

Due to this attitude they gave me (and my injured customer), I'd never suggest PMC to anyone under any circumstances.

Of course, YMMV.
 
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Re:

I could understand if different guns but same guns. Might it be a thin cylinder wall or a defect in the wall allowing a "hot charge" next to it to cause a discharge??
JMHO
You're right... but there really isn't that many .22 magnum revolvers that are carried by so many and shot as frequently as the NAA minis (at least around these parts). Before the KT P-32 became "the gun to have in your pocket", the NAA mini was "the" gun, and most of us opted for the magnum.

I personally own a NAA .22 Magnum and have never had any such problems like this, but then again I've never fired PMC Ammo (thank goodness - I don't want to be a crash test dummy). I've shot it with CCI and Winchester that I recall specifically. Several of my associates and family members also have the same model gun, and have also never experienced a second round firing in the gun at the same time as the round in battery without the ever primer being hit on the round in the next cylinder.

I have even spoken to the President of NAA in person about this PMC ammo problem. Unfortunately, Sandy doesn't seem to want to alienate PMC by a statement to discourage or prohibit the use of their ammo in NAA mini revolvers. you can bet that if the problem was the gun itself, NAA would correct it or pull it off the market entirely.

When they guy showed up in our shop with exactly the same symptoms with exactly the same ammo, I'd say a definate pattern was established. Unfortunately for him, his injuries were permanent, while my customers injuries (severe burns) were treatable, and had no permanant implications.

Had he showed up in my shop and said that CCI (or Winchester, or Remington, or whatever) ammo did that to him, I would never blame PMC, and be convinced that the gun was at fault. But he didn't. Same PMC Predator .22 Magnum ammo.

Imagine if the rounds in a magazine fed pistol (like a Kel Tec) decided to go off simply from the shock of the round in the chamber being fired.... same situation.... scary isn't it?
 

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diamondmike's no smiley ammo

Hi, diamond,

I'm very interested in your comments about not getting any smileys with PMC hollowpoint ammo. So I have a few questions. Maybe this will help all of us that got smileys with our P3AT before we did any mods.

1. Did you get smileys with other ammo you tried?

2. How did you check for smileys? You know it's not the top round in the magazine but the one in the chamber after you fire the pistol and the next round (with the smiley) is loaded. Then you have to remove the magazine and eject the round in the chamber to examine it. And you have to fire the pistol, not just hand cycle it. The recoil, inertia, momentum, impulse--whatever you want to call it--during firing is what does it.

3. Is your magazine the Mec Gar type with the slippery black enamel inside and out? Or do you have a different magazine from what the rest of us got?

4. Did you read all the smiley stuff on the new R&D forum, for members only? It explains there the cause of smileys and how to check for them.

5. Please give us the first part of your pistol serial number.

In view of what Flyer said about PMC being made by Winchester in Korea I would think the PMC hollowpoints would get smileys in an unmodified P3AT just as bad as USA made Winchester hollow points. The Win hollowpoint made in USA also have a wide mouth like you described, and got the worst smileys in my tests.

So, please shed some light on this for us. If you really don't have smileys, and have checked for them in the correct way, then we all need to know. Perhaps your pistol is some new Kel Tec design that we didn't get.

Thanks,
og.........who believes smileys exist with all new, unmodified P3ATs. :roll: :roll: :roll:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Reguarding requested information on smileys

To awnser the post above, Yes I have had and know what a smiley looks like!, I think I even have one in the upper front part of my magizine follower!, the 2 rounds out of 50 that I found laying on the ground had no evidence of smileys!.
I have the same type magizine that everyone else has, I do not even really worry about smileys but thought I would mention it because I read a lot of people due worry about them.
The PMC kinda rounds off near the tip of the bullet maybe this lets the bullet slip by the ramp or something?.
The serial number on my gun starts with the letters ( HOU ), I bought the gun new on or about Dec. 06, 03.
If you decide to try PMC in 380 auto I would not even worry about it blowing up your gun!, a 380 is a total different set up then a 22.
 

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smiley on follower = smiley on rounds

diamond,
if you see a smiley on the magazine follower then you ought to have them on tips of FMJ bullets. Try some FMJ rounds in your pistol and look for smileys in the correct manner, not on rounds laying on the ground after they bounce off a backboard. The hit on the backboard will destroy any evidence.
Do the standard test outlined in our Smiley Philosophy thread in the Members Only forum below.
OK?
og
 
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diamondmike, you apparently missed my point completely.

I never suggested that .380 PMC would blow up, nor did I compare .22 rimfire to centerfire rounds.

What I tried to relate is that *IF* any PMC ammo does blow a gun up (or hurt someone), don't expect their sorry excuse for a company to take any responsibility (such as replacing the gun, or medical bills) as would any decent American amunition manufacturer.
 
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