[cloak]

Ok I was pondering how to word this so I dont sound like a crazed gun nut. Here is a gunfight scenario, and I thought of the one of the most horrid things that can happened to a person, armed robbery. Not trying to be mean, but I have had 2 seperate occasions within the last 6 months that made me think a lot. Some people on this forum know from the ktog forum what Im talking about. The first time my company was robbed was over 2000$ dollars and the 2nd time the idiot didnt get anything.

Ok you are at work and someone comes in with a rifle. You know not if the rifile is loaded or not. There are other people in the business, like salespeople or other employees. You are armed. In Florida this is considered as a forcible felony. You know the robbers intentions and they dont look good. If you have time, do you draw and drop the bastard(sorry), or give him the money.??

Ok here is what goes on when this happens.
1. The recoginition of the immediate and imminent threat.
The goblin demands everybody to start giveing him money. He has pointed the gun at several people. This is done to cause fear and panic. This is the point that must not go any further than this.
2. Your collective thinking turns into mush for a few seconds.
And this when the tunnel vision and tunnel hearing kick in, Only the things directly in front of do you hear or see.
3. Any aiming practically goes almost out the window.
If you are going to stop this before he starts wounding people because they arent moving fast What do you do. You might not be able to get a clear centermass shot, but aim for somewhere that will incapicitate him or make his would-be theif friends run like hell. And if you dont shoot, he is going to first.

What I want to know, is what would YOU do in this situation.

I may post some more similar scenearios in the future.

 

[Flyer]

This is a familiar situation, to me.
At several job sites I had a routine I trained in, and also my family at home should something like this occur.
The threat is immediate, and bodily harm is almost certain, so...
I've drilled it this way:
"Down!" I yell. Either my fellow employees, clients, or nowadays my family hits the floor.
I draw at warp speed and punch center mass until the target is on the floor, not moving.
Of course, customers would complicate things somewhat...
But I'd keep the drill the same. Better to take the chance of accidentally wounding someone than allow anyone purposely become DEAD.
Flyer

 

[Midiman]

Well... hmm. I think there there are two different answers to this. If you're asking what I would do... I would have to qualify the answer by firstly stating that my reaction would not be what you state it would. My answer is; I would take the shot(s). If YOUR "collective thinking turns into mush and any aiming practically goes almost out the window", you might want to give it a second thought.

 

[Buck]

If all he wants is money, he can have it.
If he starts to kill or order people face down on the ground its showtime.

If there are two I will try to get around a corner and make them come get their surprise.

 

[cloak]

The mush thinking came from Ayoob Massad. I experienced the mush thought thing for about 2 or 3 seconds. Well the same guys who robbed us also robbed the drycleaners in the same shopping center. But the lady who works in there, she had 2 more to deal with(4 people) and they smacked her in the face with the butt of a gun. I also believe the same guy who had the rifle in July might have been the same guy in October who had a revolver. But who knows he could been a different idiot. But since the owners of the company have said that they wanted us to open carry at work, we havent had anymore incidents.

But giving them the money is a very viable option.

 

[Flyer]

cloak,
I don't believe that Masaad Ayoob intended that "mush" thinking was an INEVITABLE occurence; it comes from being unprepared, and is that crucial span of time that could mean the difference between life and death. His intention is to ELIMINATE the indecision. Proper training and planning will do this.
Flyer

 

[Michigan Dan]

I've been doing some interesting reading, one is a older book entitled "Shooting to Live", by Capt. W.E. Fairbairn and Capt. E.A. Sykes. Another is, "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back", by Col. Rex Applegate and Michael D. Janich. For those of you who don't believe you will get "tunnel vision" and revert to "point shooting", I suggest you at least read "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back". It is not a given, that you will revert to point shooting, just very, very, probable. This is, if you are not a swat team member, or someone else, who practices defensive, and offensive combat situations on almost a daily basis. Read the book and make up your own mind.

Dan

 

[Midiman]

Re:

I've been doing some interesting reading, one is a older book entitled "Shooting to Live", by Capt. W.E. Fairbairn and Capt. E.A. Sykes. Another is, "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back", by Col. Rex Applegate and Michael D. Janich. For those of you who don't believe you will get "tunnel vision" and revert to "point shooting", I suggest you at least read "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back". It is not a given, that you will revert to point shooting, just very, very, probable. This is, if you are not a swat team member, or someone else, who practices defensive, and offensive combat situations on almost a daily basis. Read the book and make up your own mind.

Dan

I by no means intended to insinuate that his reaction was uncommon. Quite the contrary... it's probable in most people. I just know me.

 

[Flyer]

The basic theory is that your revert to how you were trained to deal with situations like this.
I've been to several schools, including LFI, Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute.
Tunnel Vision will occur, but that doesn't mean you'll automatically revert to point shooting. The idea is to bring the front sight into your "cone" of vision.
Another great gunfighting book is "No Second Place Winner", by Bill Jordan.
Flyer

 

[Michigan Dan]

Re:

The basic theory is that your revert to how you were trained to deal with situations like this.
I've been to several schools, including LFI, Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute.
Tunnel Vision will occur, but that doesn't mean you'll automatically revert to point shooting. The idea is to bring the front sight into your "cone" of vision.
Another great gunfighting book is "No Second Place Winner", by Bill Jordan.
Flyer

That's what the book says also, but that you very likely will not be using the back sight, very much a stiff arm "point". I agree it is "what you learn", if you have spent the countless hours in drill to make it an automatic responses. Most people don't spend the time (many don't have the time), to get to the point of an automatic response to revert to a training stanch, and sighting; I.E. the revert to an instinctive, stiff arm "point". I'm sure you've read the book, but for those who haven't, it can be an eye opener.

Dan

 

[Midiman]

Re:

That's what the book says also, but that you very likely will not be using the back sight, very much a stiff arm "point". I agree it is "what you learn", if you have spent the countless hours in drill to make it an automatic responses. Most people don't spend the time (many don't have the time), to get to the point of an automatic response to revert to a training stanch, and sighting; I.E. the revert to an instinctive, stiff arm "point". I'm sure you've read the book, but for those who haven't, it can be an eye opener.

Dan

Agreed. Anyone should read a couple of these books at a bare minimum if they are carrying a gun for defensive purposes. Most don't have a clue what their reaction will be to very abnormal circumstances.

 

[Flyer]

This is good! We agree that some books are definite "Must Reads"...
Think I'll start a thread in the Lounge about books. Maybe we can come up with a short list of maybe five "Thou Shalt Memorize" ones...
Flyer

 

[madman]

I nominate Masaad Ayoob's book for the top of the list. You can't go wrong reading Ayoob.

(BTW, Flyer, the animated guy at the bottom of your posts is missing something -- a large pile of brass, and a hand that glows red and throbs. The poor guy has been shooting non-stop for something like three weeks now. I'd bet that his P3AT is about worn out, and his hand is probably ready to fall off. Does this qualify as cruel and unusual punishment? - I think so! :mrgreen: )

 

[Midiman]

Re:

You can't go wrong reading Ayoob.

Yes, you can. Listen to his tactical advice, but be leery of his weapon recommendations. He has sold out.

 

[madman]

That thought hadn't occurred to me, BUT, as the discussion was regarding tactics, reactions, etc, that was what I was referring to, actually. As for any recommendations he makes about weapons, I don't really care. I've NEVER purchased a weapon solely on the recommendation of someone, not even recommendations from trusted friends. I'm sure not going to buy one based on the recommendation of an author who may or may not have financial interests in recommending particular guns. Advice and recommendations are not bad, but it's always a bad idea to buy something you're going to rely on to defend your life without trying it out and testing it for function and reliability. Hopefully anyone with an ounce of common sense understands this basic principle and abides by it.

 

[Guest]

I don't believe I'd do anything as long as he was pointing at other people other than me and my family. If he started shooting and then it became evident that there's no way out but to start shooting then I'd duck for cover and shoot back. On the other hand if it was a family member he was pointing at I would start drawing my gun right away to get his attention away from them. Knowing how everybody and their uncle will sue someone over a stray bullet (when you shoot it you own it) I'm not going to take the chance on shooting unless it's me he's pointing at or a family member. I don't intend to help out people that don't carry a gun. I'll help out a fellow shooter but I'm not going to hang around and risk my life for the very people that would call me a gun nut in ordinary circumstances as far as I'm concerned they are on their own.

Rook

 

[Guest]

After reading several of the responses here given this scenario would you still feel that your P32 or P3AT was adequate?

 

[cloak]

I recently start carrying my gun full time because of the work issue and the permit to do so.

Fear is a number tactic that criminals use. I know I was scared poopless and have had many sleepless nights over the first incident. But the company doenst say anything about the candy dishes. I was in the lobby and was refilling them, with my back turned. But anyway its done and over with. And if ever comes to that again, Im not going to be afraid to drop the gun-toting goblin. We did make sure it was ok with the property owner and the company owners. And almost every independent merchant has taken up arms in the strip. The only stores that havent are the rent to own next door to us and the grocery store, and the kids clothes store. I have went to each one that has and made sure that the employees who access to the firearms, know the firearms safety rules. (Always treat the gun as loaded even if unloaded, etc) I had nothing to do with the influence of the other merchants that now are looking to get permits. I didnt this for money but as a courtesy to the other merchants But the other stores are our business neighbors and we all watch the people that look out of place. And the ones that dont belong have the merchants calling the cops.

 

[cloak]

Yes I would feel that my p3at would be adequate.

 

[Midiman]

I wouldn't care to be shooting across a 3000 sq. ft. store with one.