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ijust hung up after phone conversation with my son who is an armorer in u.s.army. he called to wish his mom happy birthday.

as usual i asked what he had been up to. they had been to the range today to qualify their m16's.
they fire at 25 meters at a silhouette sized to simulate 75 meters. four, five round groups. to qualify, four rnds. on target. firing is from prone position. a significant number didn't qualify so he will be out again with them tommorrow. he said they are so close that he can see his hits from the firing position. i asked what he felt caused the non qualifiers. he feels that lack of strength to support the body on elbows so that mag. clears ground, general fear of bang, discomfort (raining and puddles in firing butts), flinching and GENDER. hits are sprayed all over the paper!
if you have four hits on your first mag you're done for the day. total of FIVE shots.
he has been back from kuwait 2 1/2 mos. and received alert for return on/around 1/31/04.
his first tour was 7 mos. he is a sgt. in a transportation re-supply co. due to muster out 1/1/05. non qualifiers were predominately female. at the risk of being labeled a chauvinist i don't feel there is any reason for a woman in combat! especially next to me or mine!
 

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"at the risk of being labeled a chauvinist i don't feel there is any reason for a woman in combat! especially next to me or mine!"

A BIG 10-4 ON THAT!
 

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Ditto!!

I completely agree with you Byron! I am one of those women who understands that there is a difference between men and women. I was sort of a tomboy growing up and although I am a wife and stay at home mom now, I still am a tomboy. I enjoy guy stuff like guns and riding ATV's, etc. When I was 16 years old i joined a volunteer fire dept. I enjoyed it and got pretty good at it. I was then trusted to drive the fire engine and operate the pump, which requires mechanical reasoning. But after several years, I slowly realized that my physical abilities would never be that of a man. I was strong for a woman but I would never be as strong as the average size man. I concluded that I defintely did not want to be a paid career firefighter because (1) I would have to become a body builder and lose my feminity to have the strength required and (2) I wanted to have a family one day and didn't think it was fair to displace a man from a position on a fire dept. Basically, I believe a small percentage of women can physically handle being a fireman. The ones willing to be ripped with muscles. The same applies to the military. Women, I believe can have a place in the military, but not in combat roles. Jessica Lynch, although assigned to a supply company, had no business being in the combat zone of Iraq! I could write more of my opinions but I think that will do it for now. Don't want your eyes to get tired of reading! :wink:

Take Care and Merry Christmas! 8)
 

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byron,
It sounds like you have a son to be PROUD of. I thank him in all his work and effort. Too, I wouldn’t label you a chauvinist and I would agree that women don’t necessarily belong in the “up front” part of war.
But please keep in mind that there are probably a few males that might not be up to par with it either.
You said “especially next to me or mine!” not that it’s any of my business but I’m wondering, are you married and if so does she carry? I’m going to throw a silly thought out here. If you are married would you trust your wife with your life? Say you are out and about together and a bad situation arises and you’re not able to take on the fight and your wife is? Would you trust her to defend you both? Or would you just think oh no I’m going be robbed or killed?
I know I know it’s hardly relevant to what’s going on over there. I’m just trying to understand a WOMANS PLACE.

also I’m wondering how the folks that have responded to this thread feel about female EMT’s, nurse’s, LEO and etc… would you refuse to let them care for you because you thought they were not strong enough? I some how doubt it.

firewife,
Kudos to you on your realization. Nope, there are not many women that can match a man’s physical strength. But you made a statement that kind of bothered me. “Jessica Lynch, although assigned to a supply company, had no business being in the combat zone of Iraq!” how can you say such a thing? Would you be willing to tell her that face to face? Maybe she only joined the service to get an education, who knows? But when she signed the dotted line she knew the possibility of war was always there. And that goes for any woman that might take on a high risk job.
I try like h*ll to remain as conservative as possible while keeping in check with reality.
Oh gosh, I get the feeling I’m going to branded a feminist liberal.
No flames intended. I’m just trying to get your points.
Just for the record I’m a stay at home mom of two, doing my dangedest to raise PRODUCTIVE RESPONSIBLE adults.
Tc, Cheryl
:wink:
 

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Using Lynch as an example... she was one of only two females in that convoy. Does anyone think that if the two of them had stayed home and the convoy had been all male that the results would have been any different? Women belong where they want to be... provided they understand and accept the risks... just like any man in the service... or in the PD... or in the Fire House. It's society in general that has to stop reacting differently to a woman getting killed than they do when a male soldier dies. If women choose that path, they have an obligation to remain as fit as they can be... provided they fullfill that obligation, which is no different from that of a male soldier, I have no problem serving next to one.
 

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Anyone remember Audie Murphy?
That little shrimp who was declared "unfit" to take his place besides his fellow soldiers 'cause he wasn't big or strong enough? His commanding officers wanted to make him a dishwasher.
Just some thought food...
Flyer
 

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I helped raise 3 daughters and 2 sons. No one will ever convince me that, in a firefight, a committed woman will do less than a committed man. I would trust my life to either one.
 

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I made generalized statements in my earlier posts to avoid writing a novel. I will address the questions and opinions brought up so far. Cheryl, I know you mean no "flame". I respect that everyone has his/her opinon on this subject.

First off, some people are jumping to conclusions or misinterpreting what has been posted. Byron never mentioned anything about women in this country defending and arming themselves with a gun. He was strictly refering to women in the military trying to qualify on a M16. He strictly referred to not wanting a woman fighting in combat with his son's life to defend. He made no mention of women EMT's, police, nurses. Fighting in war and fighting against a criminal trying to rob you are completely different worlds. There should be no comparison between the two.

Second, my comment about Lynch never implied that she was the cause of the attack on that supply vehicle. Our military and our society has allowed women to serve in combat roles in recent years. I simply stated that she should have never been in a combat zone. I would rather see women serving in important roles behind the lines. Yes, I would tell her that face to face.

My attitude about women in firefighting is simply this. If she can physically do the job, then she should be given equal opportunity. The same applies to men. Again, there is a very small minority of women who can do the job on a level equal to most men. There are also some men who have no business being a fireman either. I do not want a woman fighting fire next to my husband because odds are if he goes down she's not going to be able to get him out. My husband is 6' 6" and 230 lbs. There are firemen close to his size that will be able to get him out. Because of quotas and fear of law suits, most city fire departments have different criteria for men and women. The women are usually hired no matter what their abilities just to fill a quota. There are always exceptions to the rule. I am sure there are some excellent female firefighters. Maybe I could have been one of them had I pursued it.

Since the U.S. military will probably never turn back to excluding women from combat roles, I will insist that the women perform on the same physical level as the average man. I just watched G.I. Jane again the other night on TV. It is completely unrealistic. Although, if a women could endure S.E.A.L. training, she would be one in a million.

One more note, as a woman and a mother, I personally would not choose to put myself in harm's way because my job is to raise our daughter. Example, I would love for my husband and myself to ride Harleys with friends but we choose not to because we don't want to leave our child to be an orphan. We will do it when kids are grown up. That is a personal decision. I would also not be a firefighter because my job is to raise my daughter. I would be volunteering to be placed in harm's way. My husband is placing himself in harm's way but we both are not. There are families where both mom and dad are in the military and have been sent to war. I personally would not choose that. We all have our own decisions to make in life and I have made mine.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

BTW, Audie Murphy was incredible. I recently watched that movie again. It's because he was a Texan! Remember, we are debating on generalizations not the exceptions.

Stay Cool and Be Safe 8)
 

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Re:

FireWife said:
Second, my comment about Lynch never implied that she was the cause of the attack on that supply vehicle.

My attitude about women in firefighting is simply this. If she can physically do the job, then she should be given equal opportunity. I personally would not choose that. We all have our own decisions to make in life and I have made mine.

He strictly referred to not wanting a woman fighting in combat with his son's life to defend.
Sorry about my reorganization of your post but quoting the entire thing would be pointless. As for phrase #1, I didn't imply she was the CAUSE of the attack either. I stated implicitly that I didn't think her being there effected the OUTCOME of the attack. As for her being in a supply outfit and having no business in the combat zone... what was she supposed to be supplying? The rear?

The second two phrases, the latter of which your post tended to support, are diametrically opposed. If the attitude is, we don't want women there, then there is no choice to be made.
 

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One thing...
The Israelis, who I think we'll all agree have a pretty good military, gave women a chance to fight alongside the men... they got plenty of chances.
The women, actually, didn't do badly at all. They performed their duties well, and with courage.
One problem, though, and it's at the cellular/instinctive level:
The male soldiers risked their lives repeatedly trying to protect the female soldiers from harm, and the end result was always a mess.
It's a guy thing... we see women in danger, we react. I don't think any amount of training/conditioning is going to remove a base instinct.
I really don't have strong opinions about this... if the women prove themselves physically capable of handling their duties, I don't see why they shouldn't be given equal opportunities as a man... and that includes combat.
At the same time, I don't think men will ultimately ALLOW it.
The Israelis finally pulled their women from active combat and behind the lines...
When asked about why they did this by an American Liberal TV network, an IDF General replied, "Because, we are Israel, and unlike most other countries, we have to take our wars seriously."
Interesting discussion, ya'll. Keep 'er going.
Flyer out.
 

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As in the movie "Patton"...."don't forget the Russians"....the Russian women fought alongside the men on the ground and in the air with great success.
 

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Firewife,
I don’t think there were any misinterpretations to what bryon said. And I’d like bryon to speak for himself. Too, I would feel comfortable having any combat trained woman fighting beside me. If you can’t feel comfortable about a woman that is combat trained, how do you feel about armed women here in the USA, who have very little weapons training?
And what roles behind the lines would you expect women do? Ah, never mind, really. But supplies are needed in the combat zone, they have to get there by some means and it just so happens that women were a part of it. Women will always be involved in the military now. You can’t block anyone based on gender, race or religion! And please don’t forget that there are men that don’t measure up either!
About Jessica, you just might tell her to her face she didn’t belong there but I’d be willing to bet you she’d probably have a few things to say to you. If I were Jessica and you said something like that to me, I’d have plenty to say to you and it wouldn’t be very nice.

As for the firefighting thing, women should be just as well rounded to do the job as any man. If not, see ya!

I don’t mean this as an insult but its sounds like you live a fragile life. I’m surprised that you keep weapons in the house. Shoot, getting out of bed in the morning could be detrimental to my life. God knows I could slip on the rug crack my skull open on the night stand and lay in the floor to bleed to death.
The hubby tells me every spring he’s going to get a motor cycle put me on the back and the kids in a sidecar. Sounds like fun to me! :mrgreen:

Well my point is that there are no gender specific jobs anymore. And the way I see it, if you don’t measure up to the job you should be terminated or have your application denied. End of story.

On all counts, thank you midi!

Flyer, I agree about the base instinct. I can see how that would happen with defending the women, but as for me, I’d say I would do the same for a man. There is no way in hell I’d turn my back. I know, easier said than done.

By the way where is byron?
Tc, Cheryl
:wink:
 

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it is not that women are not as brave as men I belave that a woman can take more and keep going long after a man freezes up.
Or that a well trained women could not do her job as well as a man with the same training.
Why I belave that women should not be in a combat roles is comeing from a army household ,married a vet,his whole family are well ex navy include'n his mom (a nurse) both his and my grand parents searved (my grandmother dads side as a wac)as well as uncles in both fams.
And having discused this at lenth at many get togethers only about 3 things can be agreed on with in the group
1 the issue of black berets to all army personel was a real bad idea
2 sexual preferences should be a consideration on service
3 womens should not be in combat
not to say that they are not invaluble to the war effort but not as combat troops in a front area.
Not to say god forbid we were ever invaded that women would should or could not defend till the death our homeland cause if the day ever arises many women such as myself will do what ever we need to do to repell anyone or any thing to save this great land of ours and any army would gain a new respect for women very quickly if I may add
But haveing the ability does not mean you should be doing it.When there are men able to and willing to take the great risks and in cases give there lives for all of us in the front ,and i am not saying that anywere in a war zone is safe but ...........

And this it the time of year we all sould stop and think of our brave men and women overseas and here at home helping to make our holaday season a happy and safe one here at home.

God bless them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(If we took time from our range time and a few dollars from our keltecs "food" bill we all could make a service persons Cristmass a little brighter .those that have served will atest cards and gifts from home do help alot when your are away from the ones you love)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'LL SPEAK FOR MYSELF

i've trusted my wife with my life for the last 34 years. after all, i eat her food every day and go to sleep next to her every night.
when we married, an unspoken pledge was to provide for and protect her and any other little beggers that might appear.
rudyard kipling wrote a poem entitled "the female of the species is more deadly than the male". the poem refers specifically to her actions in defense of her mate and offspring. would my wife perform in that manner? no question in my mind.
would i put my wife in that situation if it were in my power to prevent it? absolutely not.
if i were ever put in that situation, my first concern would be to get her out of it. i don't need to be worrying about her safety. she would be a distraction. i want her OUT of there. i'll worry about me.
the only woman i was ever afraid of was my mother. i've never met a woman i couldn't whip, nor one i wanted to.
i've raised 2 daughters and 2 sons. all were good athletes and students. my daughters swam, played soccer and ran on the track and x country teams. my boys played football, basketball and wrestled. there were vast differences between the boys and the girls. i now have 6 grandchildren, 4 boys,2 girls. i sit and watch them and marvel at their preferences. the girls with their dolls and dishes and the boys with their balls and toy guns. viva la differance!
i'll not debate my choice for a combat mate. no women for me.
when it comes to home and hearth...........no beards or boxer shorts in my bed unless their mine
 

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lol byron you never met me ....lol

"now have 6 grandchildren, 4 boys,2 girls. i sit and watch them and marvel at their preferences. the girls with their dolls and dishes "i grew up as an army brat with all boys."the female of the species is more deadly than the male" i can agree with though
would i put my wife in that situation if it were in my power to prevent it?absolutely not ".....good choice
not that i would go to combat as i feel it is not my place if combat ever came to us i feel sorry you would not want me or a female on your flank
 

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In keeping (sort of) with all this...I just now received an email from one of my daughters (Emma) with the following:

"According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, while both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each year, male reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers till after they give birth in the spring. Therefore, according to EVERY historical rendition
depicting Santa's reindeer, EVERY single one of them, from Rudolph to Blitzen, had to be a girl.
We should've known. ONLY women would be able to drag a fat-ass man in a red velvet suit all around the world in one
night and not get lost."

Emma could protect my flank in a firefight anytime she wishes and I would welcome her help...even if she is a sexist!
Barry
 

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Quite some time back I read a study stating women were more deadly in a firefight than men. The reasoning was based on that often in nature the females are the hunters and offspring defenders (I believe lions were the example). It continued that women carried a deadly calm, and were better at staying on target where the men in the study were not as accurate under pressure.

I'll try to find the source material. It was interesting reading.

As far as opinions go, I'm not all that fond of women in combat, but if they want to be there and can handle the job it certainly isn't for me to stand in their way. I don't really buy into the physical strength argument, as I've seen a fair number of male soldiers that couldn't carry many of their buddies out of a bad situation. I certainly don't buy into the capability aspect, because there are women that can shoot better than the majority of men I see practicing. About the only argument I do buy into is the exacerbated morale issues of female casualties -- I do believe this would have a negative impact on the troops.

My two cents, for what they're worth.
 

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This has been an interesting thread. I've enjoyd reading all the posts.

Jim Isom
Colonel, USAF Ret.
 

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It seems the "fix" would be simple enough. Have units which are either 100% male or 100% female.

Why not?

bd
 
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