Lead Cast Reload - 9mm - Sub 2000 - Inaccurate firing - Page 2
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Thread: Lead Cast Reload - 9mm - Sub 2000 - Inaccurate firing

  1. #11
    Junior KTranger
    Join Date
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    Hawaii
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    Thanks everyone for the advice. As I said before, you can find others on the web stating that they can use lead bullets in their Sub 2000 - some state they are talking about the .40 model, some say its the 9mm. I didn't want to join all the different forums to get more information to make this work. I don't have the time to resolve this to a satisfactory conclusion - perhaps as you say magman454, some modern firearms just don't like lead (like this Sub 2000).

    I did contact Alliant about using Bullseye powder for 9mm LRN, and they sent me a recipe (lead and FMJs):


    9mm Luger

    115 gr lead bullet
    Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
    Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
    Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
    Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
    Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

    115 gr jacketed bullet
    Red Dot start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
    Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
    Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
    Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
    Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

    124/125 gr lead
    Red Dot start 3.6 grs max 4.1 grs
    Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
    Green Dot start 3.9 grs max 4.4 grs
    Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
    Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

    124/125 gr jacketed
    Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
    Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
    Green Dot start 4.1 grs max 4.5 grs
    Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
    Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

    147 gr lead
    Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
    Green Dot start 3 grs max 3.4 grs
    Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
    Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

    147 gr jacketed
    Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
    Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

    Note: Start with the minimum charge wt. Reload just a few and be sure they will properly cycle the action of your pistol before reloading a quantity.


    This is what I followed.

    Maybe the next time when I need handgun powder I can try again with the other powders liste (like Unique) but I am just going to put these on the side for now.

    Thanks again.

    bullit1987 in Hawaii

  2. #12
    Junior KTranger
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    1
    Try adjusting your crimping of the bullet , it might be to tight . I had the same problem .

  3. #13
    Junior KTranger
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    Hawaii
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    Putting a lighter crimp has helped but it's still a mess at 50 yards - maybe 60% hit the paper. But for the life of me I can't do better than a 5" grouping. So I gave up on lead 9mm bullets for my Sub2000. The best ones I've found are 115 grain Montana Gold (FMJ RN). I use Unique powder @ 5.6 grains. I can consistently get 2" groups at 50 yards and 3 to 4" groups at 100 yards.

    I do use 9mm lead but in my Beretta PX4.

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  5. #14
    Junior KTranger
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    somewhere in the SW desert
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    What is the actual groove diameter of your barrel? The bullets must be at least 0.001" larger and I find 0.357-0.358" lead bullets work well, even in 0.355" groove barrels.
    Any sign of leading in the barrel?
    Leading is NOT caused solely by the hardness of the bullet, as much as by the fit of the bullet.
    If you have leading starting at the lede/rifling, then, in most cases, the bullet are TOO HARD or TOO SMALL or both. Sometimes the gas cutting will leave lead smeared through the barrel, but it still starts near or at the rifling.
    The alloy needs to be soft enough to flow under pressure to seal the bore.
    If you have leading running just along the leading edge of the rifling, the bullet is probably too soft or the velocity is too high.
    Fit is what cures leading, unless you are exceeding ~1800fps. Have you chronographed your loads, since you appear to be shooting a carbine?

  6. #15
    Junior KTranger
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by noylj View Post
    What is the actual groove diameter of your barrel? The bullets must be at least 0.001" larger and I find 0.357-0.358" lead bullets work well, even in 0.355" groove barrels.
    Any sign of leading in the barrel?
    Leading is NOT caused solely by the hardness of the bullet, as much as by the fit of the bullet.
    If you have leading starting at the lede/rifling, then, in most cases, the bullet are TOO HARD or TOO SMALL or both. Sometimes the gas cutting will leave lead smeared through the barrel, but it still starts near or at the rifling.
    The alloy needs to be soft enough to flow under pressure to seal the bore.
    If you have leading running just along the leading edge of the rifling, the bullet is probably too soft or the velocity is too high.
    Fit is what cures leading, unless you are exceeding ~1800fps. Have you chronographed your loads, since you appear to be shooting a carbine?
    I haven't revisited the use of lead in my Sub2000 since 2012. I was using the lead because of the lack of 9mm FMJs. So once the FMJs became available I dropped using the lead.

    I use lead in other rifles (WWII mostly) and I've learned much of what you say for myself.

    Mahalo for the feedback but I won't be going back to lead 9mm.

  7. #16
    Junior KTranger
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    somewhere in the SW desert
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    Twist rate for 9mm 115-147gn bullets is 36:1 to 30:1. ANY twist rate lower than 20:1 is too fast and ALL 9x19 commercial guns run 1:10-1:16. Pistols don't have any where near the twist-rate problems a .22 rifle has. Firing out of a carbine, you need even slower twist rates.
    Did you slug your barrel? I find that in ALL my 9x19s (none of them being carbines), that 0.357-0.358" lead bullets are best.
    9x19 SAAMI dimensions call for a groove diameter of 0.355-0.359". Unless your lead bullets, after seating and crimping, are not AT LEAST 0.001" larger than actual groove diameter, you won't get any accuracy. Unless you use an expander made for over-size lead bullets, and not for 9mm jacketed bullets, you could easily be swaging the bullets down in diameter. So, pull a seated bullet or two and measure and inspect.
    Next, your charge increments are WAY too large. There is no single MAX charge you can find in a manual, so you have to work more slowly up to it.
    I show start loads for 124-125gn lead bullets and Bullseye as 3.3-3.8gn and MAX loads (all pressure tested) as 3.5-4.4gn. 3.8gn is over max in two manuals—and 4.3gn is over-max in seven manuals. Thank God the 9x19 case is so strong.
    If the velocity is over 1800 fps, you might need gas checks. I find 12 BHN works great up to 1800 fps (after finding the size and lube that works best) and adding a gas check takes care of my cast lead rifle loads. Alloy hardness doesn't mean anything without FIT, and softer bullets can obturate much better than HARD. With hard, you really need to over-fit.
    All the pressure numbers give you for lead bullets is the minimum pressure to allow the bullet to obturate, not the best pressure/alloy combination. Unless the bullet strips on the rifling, the alloy is NOT too soft.
    No matter what the gun (except revolvers that can have their own issues), leading problems are almost always one of the following:
    Leading starting at the lede/rifling: bullet is too hard or too small or both. Yes, bullets can be TOO HARD. Remember, the .44 Rem Mag was developed with 10-12 BHN alloy.
    Leading at the leading edge of the rifling: bullet is too soft or velocity is too high or both.
    Leading starts about mid-way down the barrel or closer to the muzzle: lube has run out. Need more lube or a better lube.

  8. #17
    Junior KTranger
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    Apr 2016
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    thanks for information
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  9. #18
    Junior KTranger
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    Apr 2017
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    Spocompton
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    I've owned 3 Sub's, a 9mm , a .40 and currently a gen2 .40 and the sad truth is, they don't like lead or plated bullets. I just picked up my latest .40 and tried some plated loads and they were all over the place, we're talking like 8" groups at 25 yards. I remembered that I tried some cast bullets in my earlier 9mm and .40 with same results so I tried some reloads I had using Hornady XTP's and it started grouping about 3" at 50 yards which was fine with me. Although I've never measured the bore, I think the Sub's just have really shallow rifling. Sadly, these takes them out of the realm of cheap plinkers.

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