Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout
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Thread: Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout

  1. #1
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout

    Bersa 380CC v.s. KelTec P3AT Shootout, May 25, 2007 by og
    In the previous Chrony test of four .380acp pistols on April 19, 2007 http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=1044.0
    (scroll down to the spreadsheet picture)
    special note for KTR members, the spreadsheet is in the next page so you don't have to search for it
    there was an anomaly between the Bersa and P3AT with the P3AT having better FMJ velocity than the Bersa.
    I decided to re-run the test and include a wetpack comparison. The velocities this time were more what one would expect, with the longer barrel Bersa showing higher velocity, except for the CorBon DPX. (The DPX numbers are so close as to not be significant.)
    Velocity readings, average of 4 shots.....

    Rem UMC 95gr FMJ ..........................Rem GS 102gr JHP
    Bersa 933.7fps, SD 10.9..........................Bersa 913.9fps, SD 8.1
    P3AT 877.9fps, SD 1...............................P3AT 855.2fps, SD 2.5

    CorBon DPX 80gr .............................Win SXT 95gr JHP
    Bersa 1055.3fps, SD 10.2........................Bersa 822.9fps, SD 33.2
    P3AT 1068.5fps, SD 20.5.........................P3AT 791.3fps, SD 1

    MagTek FD 77gr ................................Hornady XTP 90gr JHP
    Bersa 1001.9fps, SD 16.1.......................Bersa 869.0fps, SD 15
    P3AT 961.8fps, SD 15.8..........................P3AT 807.5fps, SD 7.9

    Perhaps the only explanation I have for the lower FMJ numbers with the Bersa last time might be the pistol was new, first time fired. The rifling in the Bersa is a little deeper than the P3AT and may have had some slight roughness that affected velocity when first fired. Of course I'm just speculating on that idea. Anyway, a longer barrel, 3.5", Bersa gives higher velocity, as it should, than the 2.7" P3AT barrel. (I thought the locked breach P3AT might make a difference, but that does not seem to be a factor.)

    During warmup of the two pistols, I initially tried a small, soft plastic tube on the trigger of the P3AT thinking that might reduce the recoil "hurt" to my trigger finger. The tube actually made it worse by taking up space and then my finger hit the front of the trigger guard during recoil. Which hurt worse. The pistol feels better without the tube so I left it off. At that point I did a little accuracy comparison. The Bersa fires a tighter group but was off just a bit to the left as seen in the picture below. The long pull of the P3AT trigger causes me to be off in POA.

    Following is the wetpack test picture. Interesting was the penetration was the same for the JHP rounds. Even though the P3AT velocities are lower, lower expansion made up for it and penetration was the same as the Bersa with higher expansion numbers. With good placement, the tradeoff would be insignificant. However, the Hornady stuff doesn't look too good in expansion, might as well just use FMJ instead of Hornady XTP. FMJ did reflect the difference in velocity with penetration into the plywood backing with the Bersa.

    In all, both pistols have their place. There were no malfunctions of any kind with over 30 rounds fired with both pistols. The P3AT is the best for a deep conceal backup due to it's light weight and small size. But it's not a target gun for heavy range use and begins to hurt after about 10 rounds. If you can carry the Bersa (concealed carry model) it is more
    comfortable to shoot, light, easy trigger, and faster for follow-up shots.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout-bersa380cc___p3at_accuracy.jpg   Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout-bersa_v.s._keltec_shootout.jpg  
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  2. #2
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Here is the spreadsheet picture of the first Chrony tests referred to in the above report.....so you don't have to search for it..
    og
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bersa v.s. KelTec Shootout-chrony_with_380.jpg  
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    Administrator mr surveyor's Avatar
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    thank you oldgrandpa for some great work.

    a couple of questions:

    what was the distance for the target comparison?

    what distance do you use for the wetpack tests?



    It would appear that the Bersa has a much more "range friendly" trigger like you said. Seeing the Bersa and P3AT side by side would make the Bersa appear to be about the same size as the KT PF9 pistol?
    *************************
    ???

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    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    hi, surv,

    good questions....

    target distance was 12 feet (4 yds.) Neither of these are target competition pistols for longer distance. The Bersa has slightly better sights than the P3AT but the fixed sights were not pin-point accurate either. Trying to use either of these at 25 yds like I've heard some do is just plain foolish. Besides, if we as civilians shoot someone at 25 yds the court case is going to be murder, not homicide or self defense

    wetpack distance I use is 6 feet (2 yds) to insure POA and POI are very close to avoid having shots overlap. And I shoot the wetpack with bench rest for that reason. Six feet would be about the distance in a "last resort" situation for self defense. I consider that is what civilians would encounter. Longer distance is what police would face. Always a topic of discussion and argument.

    and the comparison you suggested looks like this, best as I can find...

    Bersa weight 16 oz.....PF-9 weight 12 oz..... Bersa length 6".........PF-9 length 5.85"
    Bersa height 4.5"......PF-9 height 4.3"........Bersa width 1"...........PF-9 width .88"
    barrel lengths 3.2" Bersa, 3.1" PF-9

    So they are very close to the same size, the PF-9 being lighter. The Bersa trigger is SA/DA and very smooth and only 4lb in SA. I've not held a PF-9 but being DAO I'd assume it's like a P11 in pull.

    But let's not get into a caliber war over this ("apples and oranges"). Granted the PF-9 is 9mmLuger using a heavier bullet and more velocity that might have more "stopping power" on "paper", in somebody's book. The .380acp round is still a 9mm in diameter. The deciding factor is placement and accuracy of follow-up shots. For me, trigger pull and control will affect accuracy a lot.

    I'm not suggesting one pistol is better than another. This test report was just to compare two of the most popular pistols on the market in .380 caliber.

    As we've heard over and over....YMMV.

    Cheers,
    og
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    Administrator mr surveyor's Avatar
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    OG

    Thanks for the reply. I agree whole heartedly with the concept of defensive use of a handgun being "close quarters". To me, anything outside of 10 yards is probably asking for trouble.

    I too would like the DA/SA Bersa trigger, but having had my PF9 for a couple of months now, and a couple hundred rounds through the tube, I can say the trigger is remarkable smooth ... particularly compared to my P3AT. They all have their place, and we all have different carry methods and preferences.

    I will once again have to reconsider my carry ammunition for the P3AT, but the possibility of having to make a defensive shooting, and the thought of a hound dog DA pushing the question of practice ammo vs. carry ammo will always be a factor in my decision as to carry loads. I have started alternating Speer GD's with MagTech fmj's partly out of fear of possibly being accused of carrying nothing but evil man killer bullets... or whatever the libs might say anyway.
    *************************
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    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    thanks, surv, for the discussion.

    The .380acp has been one of my favorite calibers for some time now. The ammo is available in various brands and types and is not too high priced. And no matter what the brand (except a few cases) always seems to perform well, even out of the shorter barrel P3AT. And even out of flyandscuba's SeeCamp midget 380 that he brings up here on visits

    The subject we both mention is one of my concerns these days, that is how the courts and liberals might say about it if we ever have to use our handguns in self defense. Every state seems to have a different view of CCW and there is only a rare newspaper article now and then about how a self defense shooter was treated in court.

    What we choose for "primary" carry could go against us in court, if it is deemed to be a "killer bullet", as you mentioned. In most police depts. the .380 would not be considered primary and at most only a backup caliber. So I would think that would be in our favor as civilians if that's what we happened to have for self defense. At most I would want only what police are authorized to carry and that seems to be mostly something in 9mm.

    So your choice of the PF-9 seems like an excellent way to go.

    Right now I'm reducing my inventory and have no more 9mm's (except a .357sig which is a 9mm bullet) and no more 32's or 40's.
    So wetpacks for those will have to be done by others.

    So trust your judgement and continue to practice.

    Cheers,
    og
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    Cor Bon 61 grain JHP. I've read several past threads about expansion v. penetration and I picked up the CorBon for the best "all around" ammo for my .32 caliber. I figure from what I have learned in my personal wet pack tests, it looks the best.

    Hickoryswitch

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    KTRangePro mrchuck's Avatar
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    A hide-out or truly small compact pistol is only for say 15 to 20 feet firing distance. Even closer happens most often.
    This is a truly up-close last resort pistol. Superb for this. Reliable.
    Use only hollow-points, and be close, and fire multiple times while the perp is trying to figure out just what has happened.
    Molon Labe

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    Quote Originally Posted by arham View Post
    Cor Bon 61 grain JHP. I've read several past threads about expansion v. penetration and I picked up the CorBon for the best "all around" ammo for my .32 caliber. I figure from what I have learned in my personal wet pack tests, it looks the best.

    Hickoryswitch
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