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  1. #11
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 34 - NAA Guardian 380 wetpack

    Article 34 - NAA Guardian 380 wetpack
    Here are the results from a wetpack test with a NAA Guardian 380 pistol, 2.5" barrel.

    Legend for the picture...

    1 Corbon DPX 80gr copper bullet
    2 Corbon 90gr JHP
    3 Federa HydraShok 90gr JHP
    4 Remington GoldenSabr 102gr JHP
    5 Speer GoldDot 90gr JHP
    6 Winchester SXT 95gr JHP

    Note with the shorter barrel (shorter than P3AT 2.75") the DPX keyholed and did not expand much. Even poorer results with the Corbon 90gr, no expansion which is the same I got with a P3AT in previous tests.
    Both are high velocity rounds and don't stabilize from a short barrel. In previous tests barrels 3" and longer were required to get good results from the CorBon 90gr JHP.

    Again, my choice is the GoldenSabr. The Fed HydraShok and Win SXT are good too. Note that the Win SXT bullet is NOT the same bullet as Winchester Ranger ammo.

    Some velocity readings with my Chrony....use legend above...
    1 1130fps
    2 no reading
    3 959.2fps
    4 897.6fps
    5 no reading
    6 no reading

    FMJ's...UMC 918.2, 962.4, 960.4fps and Fed AmerEagle 982.6fps

    The sky was bright sunlight at 10a.m. and even with the screens, the Chrony didn't always give a reading. Didn't bring enough extra ammo for more readings. But you can see the big difference with DPX compared to other ammo.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-naa_guardian_380_wetpack.jpg  
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  2. #12
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 35 - Simulated \"Bone\" wetpack

    Article 35 - Simulated "Bone" wetpack
    Wetpack test with 3/4" plywood to simulate the sternum bone.

    Finally did the simulated "bone" wetpack after our range reopened. The pictures show the front side of the plywood "bone" with bullet holes, a picture of typical holes on the back side, and the main picture, recovered bullets from the wetpack behind the plywood.
    As we had planned, the "bone" is a piece of 3/4" plywood which simulates (by comparative compressive strength) the sternum bone. I used 6" of wetpack behind the plywood and a 1/2" plywood backing behind that. The main purpose was to compare .380acp ammo with three different pistols, a Sig P232 (3.6"barrel), a P3AT (2.75"barrel), and a NAA G380 (2.5"barrel). Also included were a few .25acp shots with a Beretta 950 pistol, some .22magnum rounds from a NAA mini (1-1/8"barrel). And since I had my new Bersa 380CC to range test, one shot from it with a round of MagTech ammo.
    We already knew that 9mm ammo would penetrate 3/4" plywood from Box-O-Truth tests. But no data on 380 or lower caliber, and no data on what the bullets do if they penetrate the plywood. Thus the reason for using a wetpack behind the plywood.
    All rounds, except two, penetrated the plywood and continued into the wetpack. The two that failed to penetrate were the .25acp JHP rounds shown in the picture. Those two bullets were dug out of the plywood. Normally, no one would carry a .25 pistol, but if you do, only FMJ could be depended on to penetrate bone.
    The little .22magnum bullets did surprisingly well, some keyholing as they penetrated, and all going 5" into the wetpack. Note that only the ammo shown could be expected to do that. More tests on other brands of .22magnum available would be needed.

    For the .380acp ammo, the results are as follows:
    Remington 102gr Golden Saber. All rounds lost their jackets, 3" into wetpack, bullets went 5" with expansion.
    CorBon 80gr DPX. All rounds went 5 to 6" into the wetpack with the petals strangely folded inward.
    Rem UMC 95gr FMJ. All bullets went full 6" of wetpack and were imbeded in the 1/2" plywood backing.
    The MagTech (a JHP) fired from the Bersa380CC went 6" into the wetpack and did not expand.

    All rounds produced a lot of shards of plywood into the wetpack along with the bullets.

    Sorry, no chronograph readings, the temp was 38F and my hands were freezing, so I packed and went home.

    og
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-bone_front.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-bone_back.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-bone_wetpack.jpg  
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  3. #13
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 36 - \"Bone\" Test with the SeeCamp

    Article 36 - "Bone" Test with the SeeCamp
    Late last year a discussion by several LEO's on another site led to the suggestion that perhaps the best "placement" to stop a villian would be COM (center of mass), armpit high. This would require the bullet to penetrate the sternum bone in order to reach the heart. We determined from calculations comparing the strength of the 1/8 to 1/4" thick sternum to good plywood, that a piece of 3/4" plywood could be used to approximately simulate the sternum for wetpack testing. We knew from previous tests by Box-O-Truth that 9mm and higher calibers would penetrate 3/4" plywood. But there was no data for lower calibers. We then set out to compare a few .380acp pistols with different barrel lengths. All lengths from 3.6" to 2.5" passed the "bone" test ....(note that .25acp JHP rounds failed to penetrate the "bone"......


    Missing from our data was the SeeCamp LWS 380 with it's 2.1" barrel. The attached picture shows results of the simulated bone test and penetration into the wetpack during tests made today, April 27, 2007 by flyandscuba, Norfdet, and oldgranpa. We didn't test every round out there but this gives a pretty good idea that .380 ammo with the SeeCamp will pass the test and can be depended on for self defense aiming COM, armpit high. Entry holes in the "bone" at right.
    Only Rem GoldenSabr 102gr expanded with less penetration than the others.

    A lot of you should be happy to know your LWS 380 meets this severe test. Shown at bottom is a
    .22magnum FMJ bullet from a NAA minimagnum revolver for comparison. (We did this as a sort of "calibration" for the bone test since in the first bone test .22mag penetrated.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-seecamp_bone_test.jpg  
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  5. #14
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 37 - Ballistic Pony with 30-30

    Article 37 - Ballistic Pony with 30-30
    My "Ballistic Pony"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is a new test for me. But anyway I wanted to test some rifle ammo and an ordinary wetpack is too small for that. So I modified a design I saw, making it smaller for my medium velocity 30-30 ammo. This first picture of my wetpack I call the 'ballistic pony'.

    I fired several rounds into it with my Marlin 336 with acceptable results.

    The ordinary Federal 30-30 ammo I used produced some impressive wound profiles. This second picture shows the results. I realize this is just wetpaper and doesn't really act like a live deer. But fun to look at anyway. The large wound in pack 2 is typical of what's reported for rifle rounds, a big cavity as the round first expands and releases it's energy followed by a more normal wound path.

    Both rounds fired went thru the first 3 packs, then thru the 1/2" plywood. The fast, light, 150gr round stopped in the 4th pack shedding it's jacket. The heavier, 170gr round continued into the 5th, final pack before stopping.
    Pictures of the recovered rounds are last.

    og
    But, please remember, this is only my rifle and my ammo. In no way is this a recommendation or indication for you. You must do your own test or rely on others. And if you have higher velocity than the avg. 2000fps for my 30-30 ammo, then you will probably need a longer wetpack than this one. However, a friend with a .243 WSSM got only 10" penetration in a std wetpack with tremendous fragmentation (expected) and a big wound hole.
    YMMV
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ballistic_pony_one.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ballistic_pony_two.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ballistic_pony_three.jpg  
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  6. #15
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 38 - Mauser rifle wetpack

    Article 38 - Mauser rifle wetpack
    flyandscuba delivered the Mauser "air freight" as he promised and we spent the morning at the range doing some target practice with it and a few wetpack shots into a "ballistic pony" type wetpack.

    We shot some surplus 8mm ammo that fly brought along at 50 yd targets and learned with the rear sight set down we were hitting high. After aiming about 6" low we were easily hitting some clay pigeon targets we had set up, the windage was exact. I will have more work to do to learn how to use the sights. Suggestions are appreciated. I've got to enhance the sights also with some paint dots.

    Then we shot into the wetpacks (2 separate wetpack "ballistic ponys" were used since a single rifle round destroys the pack).
    For what a "ballistic pony" is check Article 37 Ballistic Pony)



    A round of 8mm PMC 170gr soft point went thru the 3 front bags (about 10"), thru the plywood ("bones"), and stopped in the bag behind the plywood, nicely expanding and penetration about 14" total. The surplus, sharp point ammo went thru all of it, including 1" of plywood backing, over 18" penetration, round not recovered.

    Both rounds produced the typical enlarged burst area in the 3rd bag, the surplus ammo a bigger "hole". The photo shows the damage, typical rounds, the plywood "bones" with holes (surplus, bigger hole left, PMC right hole). The recovered PMC bullet is at the bottom under the PMC box.

    Cleaning afterwards was a big job getting the corrosive surplus ammo residue out of the bore. I don't think I'll shoot anymore surplus ammo, pretty stiff recoil too. Maybe just save some of it for a museum. The PMC was better, lower recoil and good exp/penet if used for hunting. However, this rifle will be for range use only. Any suggestions on some low cost non corrosive ammo for target use??

    and I just found out the surplus ammo bullet is steel jacketed. Pulled one from the case, heavy jacket. Probably made by swaging the steel tube to shape, drawing it down to a point at top. Then looks like molten lead was poured into the tube from the bottom that is still open. Under magnification can see the tip is not totally closed. Sure don't want to shoot much of this, even if it was noncorrosive.

    og....OH, BTW, I like this rifle better than a M1 Garand.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-mauser_shots_113.jpg  
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  7. #16
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 39 - The .44magnum wetpack test

    Article 39 - The .44magnum wetpack test
    Norfdet and flyandscuba flew here on April 27, 2007 to N. Alabama in fly's plane to be with me to do some wetpack tests and enjoy a barbeque dinner afterwards. The first test was the SeeCamp "bone" test reported elsewhere. This report shows the results of the test using fly's .44magnum revolver.
    The picture is pretty much self explanatory and you can see the results with the four types of ammo used. (The .380's at the bottom are just shown for comparison to give you a better idea of the vastly improved firepower of the .44)
    Which ammo is the best? I'll let you decide. But it certainly does show that this handgun caliber should put a BG down and out if hit by one of the better rounds in the photo. (No, I didn't attempt to shoot this big revolver and even the noise was scary!! I think fly might have a photo of the wound damage in the wetpack to show.)

    og.....who is very impressed with the .44magnum
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-44magnum_wetpack.jpg  
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  8. #17
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 40 - A 3 gun high caliber wetpack

    Article 40 - A 3 gun high caliber wetpack
    Here is our third wetpack test of April 27, 2007, this one made by Norfdet with two of his pistols and flyandscuba with the Taurus revolver. We completely rebuilt this wetpack with new wet paper from a special "tub" of wet paper I brought to the range. In addition, all rounds were fired through a 3/4" plywood "bone" to see what additional penetration we would get. Surprising was the difference in distortion/expansion/penetration of the bullets from what we get with .380acp in our first "bone" tests reported elsewhere on the USR site. The handguns are noted on the left, penetration shown under each set of bullets. (Expansions not measured as with the "bone" less expansion than a bare wetpack would be expected.) Of special interest are the 9mm DPX rounds at the bottom!! (I did fire the Glock 32 and while the recoil is more than 9mm and slightly more than .45 with a 1911 pistol, it is very manageable.)

    Cheers,
    og.....very impressive penetration with this test throught the "bone"!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-3_gun_wetpack_with_bone.jpg  
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  9. #18
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    Article 41 - Wetpack with the AR-15 rifle

    Article 41 - Wetpack with the AR-15 rifle
    Here's our fourth, and final wetpack test of April 27, 2007, this one showing Norf firing the AR-15 with .223 ammo into a wetpack. (This not an official "certified" pack as we used old, damaged paper from the third pack to rebuild it. But you can do this for an informal rifle test.) As expected, we got the typical, very large "wound" profile 2" into the pack as seen in the second photo. Not as large a wound hole as with larger calibers like 30-06 and such, but still severe and penetration the full 12" with some bullets imbeded in the plywood backing behind the pack. A few bullets recovered are shown in photo 3. Only armor piercing mil-surp bullets (shown) were found. Std. ammo disentegrated.
    The AR-15 is fun to shoot and after finishing this wetpack we went to one of the 100 yard ranges for some target practice. (A few water jugs were "blown up" with the AR-15's, spectacular!!)
    og
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ar15_and_wetpack.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ar15_wound_profile.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-ar-15_rounds.jpg  
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  10. #19
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    Article 42 - The .357sig wetpack & Chrony

    Article 42 - The .357sig wetpack & Chrony
    The Sig P239, .357sig caliber pistol arrived yesterday and I spent part of today at the range to check it out. My dealer gave me his personal Springfield XD Tactical 357 to take along for comparison. He wanted me to mainly check the accuracy of his pistol but I did the Chrony test with it too and included a few rounds from it in the wetpack. Right here are just a few pictures showing the two pistols side by side and another pic of my P239 after I learned to use the sights a little better.

    Comparing recoil of these two pistols and the Glock G32 that I fired with Norfdet, I really don't see much difference in recoil at all. Accuracy is fine. All three are excellent and I'd recommend all of them. I do like the trigger on the Sig P239 more than the other two, lighter pull and it's SA/DA while the other two are DAO. The sights on the Sig are aligned a little different and it took me a while to really understand the alignment. All three fired without any malfunctions for me. I did not field strip either the Glock or the XD but I can tell you it is very easy to field strip the Sig for cleaning.

    I first did the velocity tests with my Chrony and obtained the following results...

    P239, 3.6" barrel

    Win USA WhiteBox, 125gr FMJ

    1375fps avg, SD 22

    Hornady XTP 125gr JHP

    1338fps avg, SD 19

    CorBon DPX 125gr HP

    1329fps avg, SD 18

    Speer GoldDot 125 JHP

    1362fps avg, SD 4

    and the Springfield XD 4.5" barrel

    Win USA WhiteBox 125gr FMJ

    1517fps avg, SD 28

    Hornady XTP 125gr JHP

    1485fps avg, SD 17

    Finally, here are the wetpack test results showing good expansion and penetration with all hollow point ammo tested. The longer barrel XD shows a bit more penetration, as it should. But none of the hp ammo had excessive penetration. A GoldDot bullet from the previous 3 gun high-caliber test with the 3/4" plywood "bone" is shown for comparison. Less expansion gives more penetration.
    By contrast, all FMJ rounds fired into the wetpack went the full distance including going through 1" of plywood backing and were not recovered. You would not want to use FMJ in your .357sig pistol for any self defense purpose. A picture of the typical wound profiles 3" into the wetpack is also shown.
    Based on this test, my opinion, for SD carry, the Speer GoldDot is the best round and less expensive than the CorBon DPX.





    Reported by oldgranp, May 8, 2007
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-pistol_test.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-the_.357sig_wetpack_test.jpg   NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-357sig_wetpack_wound_profiles.jpg  
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  11. #20
    KTrange Contributor oldgranpa's Avatar
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    P239

    This is just a picture of my new Sig P239, .357sig caliber, after I did a little better aligning the sights. Range 12yds. Cheap Win FMJ ammo.
    From the wetpack test results and easy recoil, in my opinion, the .357sig is fast becoming the cutting edge for self defense. Sure, the bullet is a 9mm, but way beyond ordinary 9 in ballistics.
    Cheers,
    og

    this ends Part 2 of our New Ballistics Section, note that these posts are locked. Please comment, if you wish, in the open thread or send me a pm if you wish
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEW BALLISTIC SECTION  PART 2-p239.jpg  
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