New SU-16C owner

[IntheWoods]

Recently purchased an SU-16C based upon recommendations from many on this site, and elsewhere.

I've had a chance to completely break it down, examine the construction and shoot it extensively.

This is one great and well made defense/survival rifle.

In my view superior in design to the AR type. Much more user friendly, and much easier to keep the fire control area clean.

Totally reliable and accurate as well with quality ammo, good mags and proper lubrication. The zytel stock is incredibly rugged and lightweight, unlike some suggest. The rear sight is a little cheesy in design, but functions very well practically. With the Picanty rail included most will opt for an optic sight.

I consider this the best firearms purchase I've made in quite sometime.

I can without hesitation state that in my current situation, I prefer this rifle to the AR, for reasons that I will list if anyone likes.

[Tommyhawk]

Ok, I'll bite. What are the reasons you prefer the SU-16 over the AR?
Vietman Vet Semper Fi

[Tommyhawk]

Ok, I'll bite. What are the reasons you prefer the SU-16 over the AR?
Vietman Vet Semper Fi

[IntheWoods]

Ok, I'll bite. What are the reasons you prefer the SU-16 over the AR?
Vietman Vet Semper Fi

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, had a little problem with registration info.

This is something I wrote about the SU-16 over at another forum, when someone asked what is one. I think it answers your questions.

"An Su-16 is Kel-Tec's new gas operated high powered 5.56mm (.223) semi automatic rifle. It weighs a little under 5 pounds.

It's operating system is basically a cross between an AR and an AK. Instead of a gas tube, it uses a piston and rod to actuate the bolt, extract and feed ammo. It also uses a bolt handle, instead of a charging handle with forward assist (which is a much better system in my view for quick loads, and failures to lock, etc....).

Think of it as an upside down Mini-14 or M1A, or AK or Gallil, but with a super accurate AR-15 bolt, feed and extraction system, and magazine.

The advantage of such a system as far as cleanliness is concerned is that unlike the AR, dirty, carbonated gases are not injected into the bolt, or fire control areas. Such a gas system has also proven itself more reliable in harsh environments.

This is a robust and reliable rifle, but very lightweight and based upon military designs. I consider it as reliable and as accurate as any AR I've ever owned or shot (and I've shot quite a few). It is also very well designed and of very good quality. However it is designed to be practical and lightweight defense weapon, not a show piece.

The stock is made of zytel, a glass reinforced nylon. It is very strong and resilient. The parts are all of high quality design and manufacture, and the rifle itself is tight, but perfectly reliable out of the box.

I have the C model, with the true folding stock, and theaded barrel for mounting suppressors or compensators, etc.... And like all SU's it's forearms fold down to create a bipod. I am very fond of it."

Want to know more about it, just ask.

BTW, did I mention it weighs less than my air rifle (Gamo shadow 1000), and costs half of the price of an AR by the big three? Think about that next time you have to touch up your phosphate with a little bar-b-que black.

[Flyer]

IntheWoods,
While I definitely agree that the SU is a great design and a excellent rifle, I can't quite put it into the same category as an AR in terms of true durability and inherent accuracy.
I received one of the first SUs on the market, and did the first review on the 'net. I loved it.
The AR, though, is undeniably more robust and, at least in my experience, more accurate than the SU - and that includes an SU with suberb optics mounted.
I'm mainly curious about your statement that the SU is more "User friendly" than an AR... elaborate, please? In my experience, the AR is the most user-friendly auto-rifle on the market, period.
Flyer

[IntheWoods]

IntheWoods,
While I definitely agree that the SU is a great design and a excellent rifle, I can't quite put it into the same category as an AR in terms of true durability and inherent accuracy.
I received one of the first SUs on the market, and did the first review on the 'net. I loved it.
The AR, though, is undeniably more robust and, at least in my experience, more accurate than the SU - and that includes an SU with suberb optics mounted.
I'm mainly curious about your statement that the SU is more "User friendly" than an AR... elaborate, please? In my experience, the AR is the most user-friendly auto-rifle on the market, period.
Flyer

Yes I really appreciated your review. It helped me decide to take a chance on the SU, which as you can see I am quite happy with.

I have the 'C' model and am quite fond of it, especially the light weight. At least as fond of it as my former 5.56mm rifle a Bushmaster 16" patrolmans carbine, which when I looked at the cost of upgrading the rifle to current combat ready condition with optic, forend, sling etc...., would have easily passed the $1500 dollar mark.

As for durability, perhaps it's just apples and oranges or vertical buttstrokes are popular in movies. It's no doubt the AR/M-16 is made to high standards of durability for military service as far as furniture, etc... is concerned. My point was the SU has a superior gas system all the way around while still retaining the best operating features of the AR, and weighs substanitally less, mainly because of a lack of features and reinforcement most don't need anyway unless they routinely plan to run over their rifle with a half ton truck.

In fact, it is apparent that the SU requires much less lubrication and cleaning to function reliably, and is certainly more suited to a guerilla or civilian type fighter/survivor without adequate maintenance facilities on a regular basis. So when we're talking robust and durable, I think we're talking about more than just the stocks ability to take shock. After all using ones weapon in such a regard is truly a last resort rather than the first, and the SU will more than likely not pass through 50 different relatively inexperienced users in its lifetime.

As for the accuracy question, my SU is at least as accurate out of the box with irons as my Bushmaster was. Maybe it's just my rifle, or perhaps it's just the 50 yard line, or the fact that I place practical accuracy ahead of MOA at the target range. This makes sense because once the bolt is locked there is very little difference between the two besides the lack of a chromed bore and chamber. It's no secret that as a rule a properly maintained non chromed bore is inherently more accurate than a chromed bore by a slight margin. But of course much depends upon the shooter, the manner in which the rifle is deployed as well the condition of the bore itself.

The SU is very similar in use to the AR, but in my opinion is certainly more user friendly in one very important respect. The bolt handle which not only functions as a forward assist, but in my view makes quick charging faster and more positive than the AR/M-16's charging handle. Although I'm fully aware of rapid charge techniques with the AR and mag change issues which in reality are rarely an issue, for most civilians who do not carry their weapon cocked and locked, the ability to rapidly deploy and positively chamber a round from an unloaded condition is an important feature. Perhaps it's just personal preference, but I find a bolt handle more user friendly in this regard.

It is also much more user friendly in the cleanliness and maintenance department due to the lack of carbonated gasses flooding the receiver. Although I will admit there is somewhat greater bore and chamber maintenance required due to the lack of chrome plating. But with modern lubricants I don't this to be much of an issue even considering possible SHTF or defensive scenarios.

[IntheWoods]

Just jack a new round in the chamber every morning, run a bore snake through the bore, brush the chamber and bolt face areas and lightly lube. Much easier than jackhammering layers of carbon off of a sticky AR bolt.

I agree the SU is a new rifle, and one that only time will tell. But considering the fact that I picked up my first AR/M-16 as a professional 26 years ago, the SU is a pleasant surprise.

Would I recommend it replace the AR in current form for the U.S. military? Of course not. Perhaps if upgraded in certain areas. But for civilians in its current form. It blends the best of both worlds in a highly accurate, ridiculously lightweight and and seemingly reliable package.

I will agree it wont win many braggin' contests. But then I carry a Glock instead of a Sig.

Maybe it's just me. Or maybe I've just grown tired of constantly detail cleaning and obsessing about my AR's. After all, I don't plan on hitting Omaha beach anytime soon. I will most probably just need to hit the target with what most likely I will have with me, not my substantial investment that impresses all my friends in the safe collecting dust.

[Flyer]

Ok, I respect your opinion... although since I own pretty much every civilian version of military rifles around the world, I've never found anything that could match the AR.
I don't carry a Sig, either.
I carry a sidearm FAR FAR above it.
I'll think carefully about your opinions.
Flyer

[Midiman]

As for the accuracy question, my SU is at least as accurate out of the box with irons as my Bushmaster was. Maybe it's just my rifle, or perhaps it's just the 50 yard line, or the fact that I place practical accuracy ahead of MOA at the target range. This makes sense because once the bolt is locked there is very little difference between the two besides the lack of a chromed bore and chamber. It's no secret that as a rule a properly maintained non chromed bore is inherently more accurate than a chromed bore by a slight margin. But of course much depends upon the shooter, the manner in which the rifle is deployed as well the condition of the bore itself.

It's the 50 yd line. Try it out to 200... 300... 600 yrds. You'll see a noticeable difference. Also, only high end barrels of the non-chrome lined variety are inherently more accurate. The Krieger barrel on my match AR cost more than your SU-16.

[IntheWoods]

Ok, I respect your opinion... although since I own pretty much every civilian version of military rifles around the world, I've never found anything that could match the AR.
I don't carry a Sig, either.
I carry a sidearm FAR FAR above it.
I'll think carefully about your opinions.
Flyer

Far, Far above legendary Sig quality and accuracy?

The AR's a very good rifle for the well trained, when it works and when one has the time and facilities to keep it clean. As well as the money for the initial outlay and the confusing aray of manufacturers and accessories that can turn what starts as a relatively lightweight defensive weapon, that's anything but ideal for a civilian, minuteman, survivor, or what have you, into a 10 pound monster any grunt in Fallujah would be proud to carry.

All I'm saying is that for me the SU performs the same function, at much less cost as well as substantially less weight and fuss. I also spend alot less time cleaning ensuring I have a reliable weapon and more time doing other things that can often be just as if not more important.

My point is often what counts on the battlefield is not the price or the name imprinted on the side of ones weapon.

And beware of the guy with the SKS. $100 dollar rifles will often kill you just as dead as a $1500 dollar one, depending of course upon the skill and situational awareness of the user. Regardless of what those that peddle them tell you.

The AR is capable of match grade accuracy, but is anything but low maintenance and is quite pricey. If this is what you value on the battlefield or elsewhere I would be the last one interested in disputing these facts.

As for the better rifle? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder I suppose.

Take an SU design, say a C model, put as much money, time and experience into the design and fabrication as your average AR of today and we can talk about one for one comparisons. But for now I find it compares quite nicely, at less weight, half the price and much less fuss.

And if society goes to heck tommorrow or the big one hits, I have to bury it in the woods, trade it for something more useful, or get it looted out of my house I am much less likely to have issues. After all, this is a far more likely scenario than facing the Republican Guard landing at Myrtle Beach, S.C. and beating them up side the head with horizontal buttstrokes with my high priced and reinforced stock.

That being said to each his own. I just thought somebody out there could benefit from my experience in the matter, which is quite extensive but is not intended as being everything to everybody.