Hand Loads for Self Defense

[Joseph]

Continuing this discussion in the appropriate forum per PG's direction.

a) don't use handloaded ammunition for self defense. If they do, the prosecutor will often use the ignorance of the public at large to paint the handloader as a "crazed killer that loaded especially deadly ammunition, expressly for the purpose of killing."

Flying the bullshit flag on this one too. I have been told this by many of my shooting friends and none of them could cite a case where this happened. Then I contacted the NRA and they confirmed that this as never actually been used successfully by prosecutors. One tried it back in the '70s and it failed. Lawyers operate on precedent and the rest apparently took note of the failure.

However, there are other reasons not to use handloads for defense. For instance, check out the Daniel Bias case.

Joseph

[gunfan]

The article concludes that it isn't a good idea. How can you state otherwise?

[Joseph]

The article concludes that it isn't a good idea. How can you state otherwise?

I didn't: in fact I stated that there are in fact other reasons not to use handloads for defense. My point was that the idea that a "prosecutor will often use the ignorance of the public at large to paint the handloader as a 'crazed killer that loaded especially deadly ammunition, expressly for the purpose of killing' " is another bullshit urban legend.

Not only does it not happen "often," as near as I can tell, it doesn't happen EVER.

Using handloads for defense may in fact be a bad idea, but there's no reason to perpetuate bogus reasons why.

For my .380 I only use factory loads because I don't reload for it: collecting the spent brass is more trouble than it's worth. For my .38 SPL I only use hand loads because that's all I have - I haven't bought factory loads for it in over a decade.

Joseph

[Joseph]

I didn't: in fact I stated that there are in fact other reasons not to use handloads for defense.

Having said that, the Bias case in fact had nothing to do with self defense: it was a question of accidental death v. murder.

Even so, it appears to be the ONLY case in which someone has had a problem caused by using hand loads.

Joseph

[magman454]

I have carried hand loads for defense before. I keep very good records as to what is loaded in what.

That being said, the only reason that I did it was that there was no ammo in .40 S&W available to me at the time. I mean NO ONE had it in stock, and this was before the Internet was such a big thing. It wasn't long after the round was introduced, and I used 10 mm dies to load it.

I usually carry factory rounds for defense, but if need be, will not shay away from using hand loads if it's either that or going without.

[pocketgun]

This whole ridiculous mantra is the invention of one man: Mas Ayoob. He has claimed it for years and years, and unfortunately, some people actually believe people who get paid for their opinions by interested parties. Ayoob is a gun magazine writer. These are the people who tell you all the products of their advertisers are just great, remember? They are the ones who used to publish the "One Shot Stop" stats fabricated by others. Mas is the guy who told people "friends don't let friends carry a .380" until Ruger and Smith & Wesson started selling them, then he was suddenly recommending them.

One of the big profits in the industry is 20 or 25 round packaging of "defense" ammo at a very premium price. These companies spend a lot of money advertising in the gun mags, and -surprise- there is dear old Uncle Mas telling us what a sure fire way it is to cook our own goose if we shoot someone with a handload.

HERE is a thread over on The High Road where Ayoob tried (and IMO failed miserably) to defend his master's edicts. If you take the mancrush hero worship out of it, he gets pwned when it comes down to a fact-based argument. I especially love how he cites cases, on about page six of the thread, summarizes (but doesn't post them), and then when other posters with access look them up they essentially have nothing to do with handloads.

I don't buy Ayoob's absurd argument that GSR from factory ammo is some sort of solid fingerprint either. I have regularly heard/felt significant variations in energy from batch to batch of factory ammo, and it is the assertion of any number of mfgs that they are under no constraint to stick to any consistent formulation on a given item. Others have posted chrono results documenting the variations in velocity. Here and elsewhere I have seen wild variations on the effectiveness of Remington Golden Saber 102gr JHP in .380ACP. If the last of my GS went into the BG, simply buying a box at the LGS is as likely to hurt my case as it is to help it from a GSR standpoint. I have also experienced some variations within the same box of ammo, making it even worse. At least with quality handloads this can be controlled.

Check my thread in the P-32 section on FMJ rimlock, and the malformed factory brass that caused my malfunction, then tell me you know for a fact that every round has a flash hole and will fire.

As stated, the "no handloads for carry" is nothing but a sham based, once again, almost entirely on one man's (biased) opinion. If someone has actual evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it, and not the summary thank you.

[pocketgun]

The article concludes that it isn't a good idea. How can you state otherwise?

The author (the same guy, Ayoob) pushes aside the defective factory ammo argument as essentially calling it a one-in-a million chance, then goes on a very Ayoobesque scare campaign about one having to convince a jury that an individual can load better ammo than a factory. It is not the job of a defendant to convince juries, it is their attorney's job. Lets see: if I produce 100 cartridges in a whole day of careful reloading, one that includes painstaking load development for my individual weapon, weighing/measuring by hand and machine each individual component of the loaded round to assure uniformity, is it so hard to understand for an average person why it might be better than something made on a machine in a matter of seconds and produced in batches that are larger than the sum total of every round of every caliber I have ever fired? Any lawyer worth two cents need only bring in some info on benchrest shooting to accomplish that. One need not be concerned with pinpoint accuracy to gain advantage from reliable and consistent ammunition.

Another advantage he doesn't ever consider is the lack of availabilty of certain loads. For example, might someone want the bonded bullet in a Speer Gold Dot .32ACP factory load with the added velocity of a CorBon factory load? Only way to get it is handload it.

[gunfan]

I am going to avoid the argument/question altogether by shooting factory loads for SD. This is just one more variable that can be eliminated in the courtroom.

38. Spl (+P)/9mm (+P) Luger being the minimum calibers employed for the application will help me avoid underexpansion issues.

[pocketgun]

Hey, do whatever you like bro, I fully support you making the choice for yourself. But if you are going to convince others here that it is the way to go, better bring some reasoning to the argument, not just parrot some sock-puppet's opinion as gospel. As mentioned, that guy's BS gets on my nerves.

Oh yeah, if it ever comes right down to it, you have to be alive to make it to a courtroom - don't forget that it isn't a given. I will take whatever perceived advantage I can get, personally.

[Joseph]

But if you are going to convince others here that it is the way to go, better bring some reasoning to the argument, not just parrot some sock-puppet's opinion as gospel.

+1

Joseph